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Roger's avatar

You are spot on Ted. The problem is everywhere.

I use public transit when I am in Vancouver. On a trip up to UBC a passenger was listening to their phone without headphones. The driver stopped the bus between spots, got out of his seat, walked to the back and said, put the headphones in or shut off the phone, and went back to his seat and continued the journey. And the guilty party compiled.

I took courage from his example and done the same on planes, buses and in public spaces. I make my request politely but firmly and folks seem surprised but willing to comply.

We don't need more of new quiet spaces, we need t protect the ones we have.

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John Lumgair's avatar

I've had kids say they will stab me when I've done that, but so far they haven't

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Roger's avatar

To which you might reply, "Go ahead, make my day."

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John Lumgair's avatar

I wish I was as cool as Clint, I've just stood my grownd hoping they don't make me a statistic.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

Well, eventually we will need to become statistics, as happens in any other actual war. Sure, Russian roulette is a very high price to pay. It's not for our sake, though, but society's. Especially if after one of these incidents a handful of clear copycats quickly emerge. That's all it could take to start to turn the tide.

And I live in a big city, knowing my day will probably come, even without looking for it and avoiding ambiguous confrontation.

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Lucy's avatar

YVR resident here. You're right. the worst is the speaker phone/ face time calls in cafes. it makes my eyeballs rattle. Even had a parent put on the iPad for toddler in stroller with cartoons on normal volume. Im sick of it.

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SolarJesus's avatar

How about blasting music on full tilt while jogging or riding bike on the Seawall? I have never complained to anyone, especially on public transit because I am trying to avoid getting stabbed, as someone already mentioned above

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John Harvey's avatar

Vancouver is a beautiful city. Only been there twice, but my quiet spot there is Banyan Books, which is all about spiritual books. If that is what you are looking for, it is like being a kid in a candy store... they seemed to have everything.

And taking the tram up to the top of Grouse Mountain in the summertime is an experience not to be missed (or winter, if you ski or snowboard.)

One of the most remarkable days I ever had, with one great experience after another, literally ended up on this mountain top, 4,000 feet above the city, with the city lights twinkling in the distance below. And only 20 minutes away from downtown, if you hit all the traffic lights right on the way to the tram.

How good can things get? They can keep getting better!

It isn't just silence we seek, it is also beauty. Without these things the soul dries up.

I must pass along this film recommendation: "Into Great Silence." by Philip Groning. If you could only see one film, ever, let it be this one. This unique film about a silent monastery is almost three hours long, with no music, no narration, little dialogue, little story or characterization, but it draws you IN. Depending on your condition, you might have a profound experience.

A perceptive review:

https://catholicexchange.com/movie-review-into-great-silence/

Also recommended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NTVXaxHBQQ&t=446s

And:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZXBia5kuqY&t=19s

And:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivgTiP55psU

And I know a place that belongs on this exalted list, but I won't mention it here in public, because publicity might destroy it. Am willing to tell individuals about it.

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Roger's avatar

John,

You are right. Vancouver on a sunny day is one of the great cities of the world.

I too have enjoyed shopping at Banyan books.

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John Harvey's avatar

Yeah, I bought some stuff at Banyan. And I fell in love with the city immediately when I saw how close it was to the mountains. On my second trip, I arrived on a Sunday in snow, then it turned to rain, and the clouds didn't part until Thursday. But behold: a gorgeous bath of pink and blue twilight on the snow-covered mountains...heavenly vista! It was worth the wait. The beauty was intoxicating. It was painful when I had to fly back to New York, which sadly is not as easy on the eyes. Beam me up there again, Scotty. Too bad it is so expensive to live there. The people were so nice. That was in 2009; have even the people there changed since then? Or is it just...the phones? My grandfather was Canadian, so I think Canadians are nice. Which is why we treat them like trash, apparently. Makes sense, to a predator.

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Bobby Lime's avatar

Being aware that even a mind as obsessive as mine can't be flawless in recall, I hesitate to attribute the following to Mike Royko, though my bet is that he had something to do with it. I'd narrow the bet to be that it was something which someone did which he wrote about, not something which he himself did:

A middle aged man was a passenger on one of the els ( elevated trains ) in Chicago. He and everyone else in that particular car were being tormented by a kid with a boombox on his shoulder. Finally, he went up to the kid.

"Would you sell me that radio?"

"Huh?"

"Your radio. I want to buy it, right now. If I gave you ( I'm sorry, I don't remember the amount ) in cash, would you sell it to me?"

"Hell, yeah!"

The exchange was made, whereupon the new owner smashed his new possession as hard as he could, repeatedly, onto the floor of the car, to the cheers of the other passengers.

I've noticed a delightful absence recently: at the big box store I usually buy groceries at, there used to be crap music blaring so thunderously from the speakers around the place that one day, becoming desperate, I asked a couple of women who were stocking shelves who the person was whom I could talk to about store policy on this. I had to scream to be heard by them. They finally grasped what I was asking about, and worst of all, looked uncomprehending of why I would have a problem with it.

It's likely I wasn't the only complainer. But for a couple of years now, those speakers have been silent.

I will say that a few years ago I was at another big box store which was also playing music for the customers, but it was 1960s' Motown, at about a quarter of the volume at the other place. It was nice.

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Roger's avatar

I love your thoughts here. Each of your examples demonstrate how courage and creativity can make a difference and the positive response of others proves the point about how many others long for an end to this madness.

I am convinced that courage, creativity and civility can take us a long way in solving this problem.

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Mitch Ritter's avatar

Typo alert! Opening 'graph last sentence: "And the guilty party compiled." I'm guessing "And the guilty party complied...." Otherwise you get an up-vote for this well-argued and sure to be unpopular call to privilege library quietude.

Tio Mitchito

Mitch Ritter\Paradigm Sifters, Code Shifters, PsalmSong Chasers

Lay-Low Studios, Ore-Wa (Refuge of A-tone-ment Seekers)

Media Discussion List\Looksee

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Roger's avatar

Mitch, you have a good eye. Thanks for catching that.

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8d Press Publishing's avatar

Wonderful article to read in full as I did ...I'm always seeking quiet spaces and the irony is that I found my quiet space in the middle of the city ...when people go home from their day out in the city, my place is blissfully quiet. I hear the owls tooting at night and the wind in the trees....I am so sensitive to noise and cannot bear how loud the world has been become.....I blame mobile phones the most ....I was asked to leave a venue recently by security because I had approached a man who was video chatting with someone right next to my restaurant table, and I asked him quite softly if he could take his conversation out into the lobby. He complained to the restaurant manager who got security to ask me to leave ....the entitlement of some to hog personal space within a public space all for the glory of them does my head in. Thanks so much for your article Ted Gioia....it's lovely to feel I am not alone. Xx

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Michele Linehan's avatar

I hope you left an accurate Yelp review to protect those of us who value quiet from having to dine there. I'm so tired of loud, public cell phone use. And the loud 'background' music is equally awful!

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Ruth Gaskovski's avatar

Just having returned from Switzerland, I am happy to report that some countries do take the importance of quiet to a national level. Swiss regulations state that residents are to "observe hours of peace and quiet" not only during the night, but also from 12 to 2 pm. During this midday break people are expected to refrain from vacuuming, playing musical instruments, hammering, etc and must keep television and radio noise at room levels. These rules may seem intrusive, but offer a collective effort to give people a period of quiet reprieve in the middle of the day. There is a reason visitors to Switzerland perceive it as such a peaceful place :)

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Vida B's avatar

Siesta.

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e.c.'s avatar

Exactly. Although I doubt businesses close down for it in the afternoon. In the 70s, many did, in Switzerland. It was nice!

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Ruth Gaskovski's avatar

Many did until the 90s and some still do :)

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e.c.'s avatar

I believe you! It's a very courteous country, or at least, that was my experience.

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e.c.'s avatar

That's nice to know! Thanks.

But a number of the French-speaking cantons are Catholic; also some of the German-speaking ones, no? I stayed in the mountains above Lausanne, and while the village church was Protestant, there was a Catholic parish (mostly for visitors) in the ski resort town at the top of the mountain. Plus the cantons to the SW were Catholic, or predominantly so.

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Ryan's avatar

Most of the European countries have Siesta type rules. Sundays are generally the same. I remember in Italy at an Adriatic family resort in July, you couldn’t even use the swimming pool from one to four o’clock. lol.

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e.c.'s avatar

Northern European countries are different in this respect.

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Ryan's avatar

Northern European countries like Germany and Austria however do have strict quiet rules for times like Sunday and late nights. No shops are open on Sundays except for those at train stations or rest stops on the Autobahn.

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Metaxia's avatar

More like the sanctity of lunchtime.

In my youth I'd laugh at the Swiss prohibition of flushing the toilet at night. Now I'd gladly move there for the quiet!

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Patrick Bucher's avatar

And most importantly: Mowing the lawn is forbidden during those hours! On Sundays too, at least to my knowledge.

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Dr. John's avatar

The remnants of Calvin's in effect.

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e.c.'s avatar

Not necessarily. Much of the country is Catholic.

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Ruth Gaskovski's avatar

Around 30 % are Catholic, mostly in the southern, Italian-speaking regions.

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herb roselle's avatar

I read in my fortress of solitude at home in my reclining chair. Public places are too distracting, visually and acoustically. I'm a serious reader though. Still, in public places, less noise is best noise.

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Michael L's avatar

Same. I developed a room and storage space into a library at home. Quiet thanks to walls of books, and upholstery. And careful selection of company. If I cannot hear the quail or doves outside through closed windows, it’s too loud.

Friends and neighbors when seeing a ROOM, devoted to BOOKS, respond like bonobos encountering an operating room. No idea how it’s used, or why. But they like it.

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Maureen Hanf's avatar

Sounds heavenly and one of my goals.

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Al Keim's avatar

Far away from the cold night air?

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Vida B's avatar

I do most of my book reading in the middle of the night. Me and the coquis.

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Maureen Hanf's avatar

Yes, do similar.

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Jordan Pine's avatar

I do think age is a factor. As I have gotten older (I'm over 50 now), I have become much more sensitive to noise. Thank God for noise-cancelling ear buds! I can't travel without them because of all the things mentioned (calls & social media on blast, etc.) -- not to mention people's loud, incessant, and inane conversations.

Or maybe it is generational and not just me? TikTok on volume 10 is the bane of my existence. It repeats the same irritating snippets over and over if you don't swipe. Because my kids are used to this, I guess it doesn't drive them insane. Just me!

Those are my kids, and I can enforce some rules of decorum at home. Outside my home, it's pandemonium. The absolute worst is calls on speaker. I keep swearing that the next time someone does it next to me, I am going to join in the conversation! If it's not rude to make me listen your inane phone conversation, why should it be rude for me to join in?

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Greg Lindenbach's avatar

Made me laugh- I've often also been tempted to add my opinions to ongoing speaker calls next to me. Always brings a smile if nothing else.

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Dr. John's avatar

Your kids are already insane. Is my guess.

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Jordan Pine's avatar

In that sense, I think the whole TikTok generation is.

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Dr. John's avatar

It's both

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Whiskey6's avatar

Have you heard the term “quiet snob”? There was a whole series of articles before the pandemic associating quiet spaces

with white privilege. The argument goes that non-while cultures don’t see quietness in public places as a priority and so enforcing white cultural norms of quietness is repressive. Increased immigration paired with forgotten social norms after isolation has rewritten our public culture from the classroom to the quiet car. Until there is public shame is behaving inappropriately, quietness is not coming back.

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Ross R's avatar

Yet another confirmation that the Irish are still not white.

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Jerry Kennedy's avatar

Or how about modern progressive orthodoxy is bonkers!

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Ross R's avatar

There is probably some truth that the more a person is "of the global south", the less fussy they are about noise. Call it extroversion or call it a lack of consideration, it doesn't matter.

The critical question is, do you need an ethnically homogeneous population for quiet spaces to exist? Perhaps true for publlic transport but not true for libraries.

It's not that non-white people are noisy, it's that multiculturalism introduces a racial dynamic into the smallest of everyday conflicts. You literally can't confront people about minor infractions.

I've heard anecdotally that Austrian people have no qualms about shaming people for being noisy. On YouTube I listened to a Brazilian woman in Vienna who lamented being constantly shushed.

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e.c.'s avatar

It depends on where people are from, social class and mores, and much more. I wouldn't automatically assume that people from the Southern Hemisphere are noisy - many aren't.

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Jerry Kennedy's avatar

Good for shushing! Cultural mores are a two way street. Also a prescient argument for assimilation over multi-cultural acceptance

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Whiskey6's avatar

You have to have librarians who are willing to enforce a quiet space. If enforcing quietness is seen as racist, librarians will (and proved to be) the first to abandon ship.

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Amy's avatar

Public librarian here. The library where I work has one designated area where there can be no audio from devices, no talk amongst patrons, and I work hard to enforce that. The rest of the library is whatever noise level it happens to be that day, which can range from church-like to Chuck E Cheese depending on the number of kids in the building. I don't have a problem approaching patrons who aren't following our quiet area policies, but many library staffers are not comfortable with confrontation because they fear the patron's reaction. Librarians have been spat on, screamed at, verbally abused, stalked, and in at least one case, followed to the parking lot and killed by an irate patron.

It's gotten worse since the pandemic. Patrons used to voluntarily go into the library's vestibule to take phone calls, now they not only carry on long conversations right near the desk but think it's ok to do so on speakerphone. This general change in behavior seems to have caused a kind of 'policy creep' for library directors and management who think that if so many people in the community want to use their phones in the library, then we should change our policy so that it's ok, rather than pushing back. Library staffers are at the mercy of their directors and boards.

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Dr. John's avatar

You mean the scamdemic.

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e.c.'s avatar

I lived briefly in an apartment building that was home to a lot of Latin American immigrants, back in 2001-02. It was rarely quiet, though to be fair, it wasn't like most other residents were noisy - only a few. But when some of the "few" start parties every night right underneath your bedroom - around 2:00 a.m., to be exact - and they're drunk and loud and dancing to loud music - well.

Most people in the building had young children and weren't happy about the noise, either.

A friend whose family immigrated from Venezuela to Brooklyn in the 1940s told me that her parents decided they were going to move to El Barrio, in Manhattan. It was so noisy at all hours that they were back in Brooklyn within ten days.

Some folks have always had different standards for loudness and quiet than white people from N. America. I'm white, N. American, and have never handled "loud" well. But i do think that Ted's friend is onto something re. post-pandemic loudness, even in supposedly quiet spaces. Am so happy that I can hear birdsong and wind in the trees, after having lived in a *loud* part of my (small) hometown for 3 years. Amazingly, nobody here set off fireworks on July 4th, and I rarely hear anything louder than quiet conversation as people walk by my LR, no matter what time it is. It's incredibly refreshing - and i suspect many other residents value the quiet, too. I can't even hear traffic, due to there being a high earth embankment directly behind my building that's covered with ferns.

There are a lot of Latin American immigrants here, so I kind of suspect that they value quiet and find it a relief, too.

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John Harvey's avatar

I think what Ted is getting at is that we really need a respite from this 24-7 hurry hurry hurry louder louder louder harder harder harder more more more culture.

Look who we make celebrities of: Hulk Hogan. Nobody gets ahead in America by being quiet, or respectful of others, or by listening. Instead we hear:

ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME

Surrounded by this insanity, we need sanity. Also, we need to live in reality, not constant performing and fantasizing. But not everyone thinks this way, so look how things are.

It is getting hard to hear the birds singing, and we can barely see the stars in the night sky anymore. This is our man-made world.

We might destroy it through carelessness.

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e.c.'s avatar

Very much agreed!

Light pollution is terrible. There's *one* dark sky location (for astronomy) in my state. And I haven't seen the Milky Way clearly since the late 70s, when I was in the Swiss Alps, in an area where there were very few streetlights. Even then, it had been many years since i had seen it like that, due to our town's having put a mercury vapor streetlight on the hill behind my family's house. That ended getting out the telescope on clear nights... in the 1960s. (The streetlight was for crime prevention and, in many ways, was necessary, but it did wreck our ability to sit on the side porch and look up at the stars.)

The light pollution + air pollution in the DC area is so bad that the night sky is purple. It's an attractive color, but it's impossible to *see* anything apart from the reflected glow.

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John Harvey's avatar

When I grew up in CT in the 50s and 60s you could still see the stars at night. I had a telescope, and belonged to an astronomy club, and read Sky and Telescope. See, I am like you!

Since then: gradually, gradually, our view of the night sky diminished. No longer did I get a view of the Milky Way, or the Universe, or a feeling that we are a part of it. This was a real loss.

Around 2000 I read that a big meteor shower (Perseids?) was coming up, and I wanted to see it. I had to drive around for miles and miles before I found a spot that was dark enough. It was the front lawn of an elementary school, and a bunch of other people had also found it. We lay back on the lawn and watched the show. There were a lot of shooting stars. I counted them. I wondered if I could see a hundred? I decided I wasn't leaving until I had. Success! It took till almost daylight, but I did. A night of awe, wonder, and beauty! Everything our modern world is deficient in.

Here is a MUST SEE film for you: Bill Forsythe's "Local Hero." It includes this very topic:

Trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCFhg6Q6gXU

Get it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8u4ytzPdA

Btw Bill Forsythe is full of Scottish soul. He is also know for "Gregory's Girl," "Comfort and Joy," and others. A really unusual filmmaker.

https://www.bfi.org.uk/features/where-begin-with-bill-forsyth

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Jim Hickey's avatar

I just put Local Hero on hold to borrow from my local quiet library ;-) Thanks for the tip.

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John Harvey's avatar

I hope you enjoy it. Forsythe is unusual in that he has no childishness, rebelliousness, or spite in him. He just makes a lot of sage observations about human nature. He is not one for condemnation, or settling scores. He isn't into vendettas, or spleen venting, which are useless. And he's funny!

BTW if you check out "Comfort and Joy," his film about ice cream wars in Glasgow, be aware that this was inspired by events that actually happened:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_ice_cream_wars

He does try to aim for the silver lining in the dark cloud which the combatants might have missed. He is like the exact opposite of a person who follows the usual advice "If you want an audience, start a fight." How do you attract an audience without fighting? People are attracted to a show. Who listens to one who is quiet?

Many people are NOT saying:

"Be still and know that I am God."

"Those who speak don't know. Those who know don't speak."

"What is essential is invisible to the eye."

Bonus goodies:

Let me praise "The Straight Story" by David Lynch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0zb_baTzkk

This also is based a true story: an old man who can't drive anymore who rides his lawn mower 240 miles (!) to see his brother, and reconcile with him, while they were both still alive.

https://historicflix.com/the-unbelievable-story-of-alvin-straight-the-man-who-drove-240-miles-on-a-lawn-mower/

Singer Eva Cassidy. Died at 33 with no record contract, but a small body of work that got recorded. She supported herself by working in a flower shop. Staggering emotional depth. She often lowers (!) her voice when she has something key to say, as if whispering a secret:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbQst5HZj6E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbQst5HZj6E

And Polish pianist Hania Rani (per Ted's recommendation). Where did this music come from, another dimension?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NTVXaxHBQQ&t=471s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFRdoYfZYUY&t=368s

Architect Fay Jones of Arkansas built a chapel in the woods. It speaks without preaching. Best part starts about 5 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFRdoYfZYUY&t=368s

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AJDeiboldt-The High Notes's avatar

I remember reading a piece about that and was galled that the author believed that just because she grew up around a bunch of people who had an active disregard for others around them, that society at large should be forced to live like that or be considered bad people for pushing back on that.

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mrscslp's avatar

Only white people are introverts? 🤷‍♀️

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Joe Donatelli's avatar

I think some of this is a design issue. Old libraries looked like silent sacred spaces. New libraries look like … everywhere else people go.

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Uriah R.'s avatar

Nailed it. instead of quiet and somewhat dim, it's all bright and white. Kind of like a Cathedral vs. a modern church with boring dry wall

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Brent McClintock's avatar

Public libraries have re-branded themselves to receive a budget as "community centers". While that shows adaptability, broadens reach, along the way they risk overlooking the continued demand for quiet spaces.

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Dr. John's avatar

Yes. And years back history and geography became... social studies. It's been declining awhile.

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Sandra Greer's avatar

"Citizenship education". Now THAT was a travesty! I think the current administration would like to revive that.

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Caitlin D.'s avatar

It's less a re-branding and more a 'voluntold' situation. There aren't any actual community centers anymore that people can actually afford. Children have to be watched at all times, but parents can't afford to take them anywhere else. Children who *are* let alone don't have anywhere else to play. Fun and educational programs cost too much, so people come to our free programs. Libraries are literally the only place people have left to go to do *everything* without paying an arm and a leg. We had to give in to the needs of the people, and there are so many needs, and quiet lost out.

But I have to admit, I wish I could shush.

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Brent McClintock's avatar

May I split the difference with you? ;) In that, it's not perhaps really a major difference. Re-branding is more about supply while "voluntold" is more about demand.

Re-branding is supply by local government and those vested in preserving the library space that has broadened its offering as reading and books declined in demand while "voluntold" is demand for that space for the purposes of absentee caregivers, children (insert age range), and others (seniors, homeless, disabled and so on). Local governments also as providers realize the deficiencies in meeting needs they're unwilling or unable to meet in other ways and libraries become a default response. This is not some well-worked out analysis on my part, just a next step in making better sense of it. At root, it's a symptom & response to profound change in society and "imbecile institutions" failure to anticipate and respond fast and effectively enough. On topic again - some of us need more quiet, others need more sound & action. Finding the balance in public spaces will always be challenging.

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Caitlin D.'s avatar

I agree. It really is a bit of both. And the change in libraries is really a result from the change to a society that no longer values information and quiet. Those who still do are left in the dark. And I don't know what the solution would be.

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Brent McClintock's avatar

I'm optimistic. Humans are creative beings. They/we will find ways to find or create quiet. It's part of what most of us need in some measure. The past, if we look, will give us some ideas. A couple of months ago I came across a review of anti-noise campaigns and ensuing legislation in the early decades of last century. Mostly external noise, but also from machines inside. I hadn't thought much about it in terms of historical experience: including quiet zones for urban schools impacting student behavior and learning. One source: Smilor, Raymond W 1977 Cacophony at 34th and 6th_the noise problem in America, 1900-1930, American Studies. Ya see, that's what quiet time and reading might do - educate me! :)

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Greg Lindenbach's avatar

And worse, in our urban environment, a place where the homeless camp out.

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e.c.'s avatar

Where do you think they should go, if they're not disturbing anyone? I was nearly homeless a couple of months ago, and not because I wanted to be. I hope you yourself are never facing that. Until then, maybe rethink how and why people end up with noplace to live... and realize that people living in homeless shelters are locked out during the days, especially in cities.

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Greg Lindenbach's avatar

And credit to you for landing on your feet. You're not alone, and it's a tough issue. People making a lot more than I do don't seem to be making much progress.

However when I say 'camp out', I mean it. Vomit in a far corner. The cans and bottles that recyclers won't accept in another. Joe having his daily seizure, whether epileptic - which is 45 minutes on a good day til the paramedics arrive- or OD, and (correct me if I'm wrong) most libraries don't stock Naloxone, much less require their employees to have related training.

Most libraries are trying to stay afloat on slim budgets that may/may not include Security personnel, First Aid training and De-Escalation/Conflict Resolution training. These are not typically reasons why one would choose to work in a library.

So apart from driving away patrons genuinely interested in books, the library is now... something else. And if it closes for lack of support/funding, everyone loses.

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Will Granger's avatar

I see a lot of homeless people in the library near my home, and they are by far the quietest, most reserved people there. I respect them immensely.

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John Harvey's avatar

Nobody knows what "sacred" means anymore. We live in a profane culture. It isn't just the buildings. It is everything. When a President can refer to the DOW hitting 30,000 as "sacred," then the word has become utterly meaningless.

The moneychangers bought the temple.

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Phil Rouge's avatar

I'm afraid you kind of missed the point, this time. Even before the pandemic, the trend was:

- Go work at a cafe (supernoisy)

- Coworking spaces (supernoisy)

- Companies were gutting their offices to transform them into open spaces with hot desking.

So, all brainy works are done in noise now. There are also apps that simulate noisy environment when you're at home (although, you can select nature sounds as well). I think it goes together with the continuous blast of music from every speaker in every store, but I'm the one yelling at clouds now

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Dave Stern's avatar

Indeed… why oh why is there music/muzak everywhere. It’s like people are afraid of quiet.

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Brent McClintock's avatar

Yes! They're super scared of listening to their inner voice and the world around them (nature). The "it's about me" syndrome.

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e.c.'s avatar

How do you know that? I'm asking sincerely. Because other than "man on the street" polls, there's simply no way to be sure.

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Joelle A Godfrey's avatar

This.

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craig nuttycombe's avatar

Most people (at least in America) are afraid of quiet.

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Edward Caro-Lopez's avatar

I had a younger supervisor tell me that she could not stand being alone with her own thoughts. I think the noise is essential for people like her to be able to function.

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e.c.'s avatar

But that's been true for about 70 years now, since Muzak 1st caught on.

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Dr. John's avatar

How about desi arnez invention of the laugh track for TV.

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Nakayama's avatar

I found that people who like to talk, especially those who like to speak in a loud voice, tend to be people not inclined to think deeply, if thinking at all. My take from this article is similar to my own observation on people around me: there are fewer thinkers, let alone deep thinkers, than before. While the number of superficial talkers has skyrocketed. I blame it on social media. Even in text-centric platform like Substack, concise and insightful comments are becoming more difficult to find.

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Treekllr's avatar

I have a friend that has such a great brain, i encourage her to use it all the time. The results are always impressive. I think im the first person shes met to encourage her to think deeper. I dont think it ever occured to her that she could. Shes of a younger generation, and alot of my education in thinking i take for granted, she never got.

And thats what weve lost. Its not so much that everybody is dumber(well.. ok so there is some of that too lol), its that they arent pushed to use their intelligence. Theres less need, less incentive, less reward.

Shes smart enough to see that the results are good, and now the balls rolling. Shes more likely to take the initiative with her thinking. My point being, it can be helped. Someone did that for me when i was younger(though books or in person), and i try to spread that to others, if they seem willing. It takes some doing, but it can be done

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Nakayama's avatar

VERY TRUE. Human nature and capabilities have not really changed that much since the days of Plato and Confucius. It is that over time, different emphases are put on the human socialization process. In our current world, the elites make a sincere effort to make us think less. It started from not memorizing the 9x9 multiplication table, the usage of calculators in schools, the removal of courses on logic and methodology in college, etc.

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Treekllr's avatar

And if its a concerted effort theyre making, it must be for a damn good reason. The less we think for ourselves the easier we are to control.

And theyre doing a damn good job of it too. What comes next will be so much worse:(

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Maureen Hanf's avatar

This has been my experience as well. At least I can continue to find and read people above my paygrade here, even if it is becoming a bit less so.

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Dr. John's avatar

I blame it on fake media and government schools. Mainly the latter.

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Marty Neumeier's avatar

I truly miss the quiet spaces I grew up with. Not just libraries, but restaurants, theaters, supermarkets, and office spaces.

Last time I was in London I went out to Sunday breakfast at a busy restaurant in Sloane Square. The noise level was deafening. There were two TV monitors side by side with the volume up loud—one with news and the other with a football game. Over the sound of those ran two competing music tracks, one at each end of the restaurant. The space seemed to be designed for the clatter of dishes and people talking at the top of their lungs.

After finishing I went up to the manager to ask politely about the noise. (Is there such a thing as a male Karen?) He was shocked anyone would question it. He said, "Well, research shows that people are drawn to noisy restaurants. It's part of our business strategy."

Really? Not everyone seeks out noise. The executive lounges at the airport are havens of serenity, and they're very popular. Whenever I have an extra hour before my flight I'm happy to pay a fee to get in there. It's one of my favorite places to write or catch up on my reading. So cushy and quiet, with little side tables for snacks.

Maybe this was the attraction of all those men's clubs in the Victorian era.

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John Lumgair's avatar

A good strategh for one business, the opposite will probably work for another, as they attract different people, or the same people wanting different things. Wetherspoons has made silence, other than conversation, part of their strategy. I think noise is seen as social proof and success and if everyone has to shout they want to buy more drink due to a dry month.

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Marty Neumeier's avatar

A dry mouth and a sore throat. I think you're right about the social proof of noisy restaurants. But I doubt if it's strategic. Business strategy derives from using one or more clear differentiators to separate yourself from the crowd. Being just another noisy establishment is tactical, at best, and really means nothing if your competitors are doing the same thing. I fear the real reason so many places are manufacturing noise is that everyone else is doing it. Wetherspoon has the right idea. When everyone zigs, zag.

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e.c.'s avatar

I don't know about that. Do you think noise level in the UK of the past had something to do with social class + the predominant age group of those who frequented certain restaurants and pubs? Am willing to bet that it did.

As for a certain amount of noise, it can be read as both social and convivial, especially at peak traffic times in both restaurants and bars.

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Sarah Fowler Wolfe's avatar

My home is my fortress of solitude and quiet, although my six-year-old often has other ideas. But I really do mourn quiet public spaces, especially the library. While it's okay if children are excited, it's also important to teach them to be quiet! Contemplation is important for our brains.

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Chad Raymond's avatar

Two thoughts:

1) I want a new Luddite movement that smashes the wall-mounted TVs in every single waiting room and office lobby that I'm forced to enter.

2) Restaurants and cafes used to have an ambient noise level that allowed for quiet conversation. Not anymore. If I feel like I have to shout to be heard by whoever is sitting at my table, I'm not coming back.

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Brent McClintock's avatar

I fear for the movement. We might be shouted down in our hushed upheaval.

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Metaxia's avatar

AMEN

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Brent McClintock's avatar

This summer I was relocated ("banished"] on campus to a smaller office in a "less desirable" building. But it has a lake view, the door closes, and there are several spaces within 30 seconds walking that I can use when I need solitude when others aren't using the space. When I went to the relocated mailroom, not only were they isolated in an outlying facilities maintenance building, I discovered a seldom-used reading space, comfy chairs, low usage. Other end of campus, IT support has a few unused corners, and merciful quietude with agreeable, tolerating folks. Most valuable, I finagled a home office for soubhiye (quiet time to yourself). Reviewing my recent work space changes, I'm far from being banished, rather I'm liberated. Ssssh, don't tell anyone! Quiet spaces are there, you just have to work harder to find & use them far from the madding crowd. But there's the rub: we shouldn't have to fight to enjoy some peace and quiet.

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Brent McClintock's avatar

I forgot to mention my dentist's office waiting room in a Frank Lloyd Writing office building. Big spacious, lots of seating, a large fireplace, and as quiet as a library used to be. I just have to summon up the courage to ask very nicely if they'd mind me coming in just to read or write when I don't have my six monthly appointments... (I probably have enough quiet spaces for now (see above)).

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Maureen Hanf's avatar

Yes! Exploring a campus and finding a corner or two here and there is a wonderment to me these days. Especially if there is a comfy chair. Additionally, I have found that towards the end of the day as the campus starts to empty out, there are even more quiet spaces. Terrific find of your dental office! I am always in the lookout for a coffeeshop that has plenty of space to read and veg quietly in.

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Tim's avatar
Jul 26Edited

I love it. Make a hermitage (WeLearn?), fill it with books and knowledge tools and study rooms, then make behavior the one rule for membership -- you make noise, you get suspended for a week; get suspended three times, you get barred for a year. Of course, it would be nice to have public libraries that are administered properly again, but we know that ain't happening.

Also, museums should offer paid times when cameras and phones are forbidden. Pure bliss, plus a good way to raise money.

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Kat's avatar

Great idea Tim! I would absolutely pay extra, and arrange my schedule around, a phone/camera-free museum visit!

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JUDY CROSHER's avatar

Some years ago I did a project for my fine art degree involving recording silences in various places in London. One I chose was the British Library Reading Room which I remembered as being the quietest place I'd ever worked in.

Not now - No-one spoke, but the air was full of a continual chorus of soft clicks - everyone was reading and taking notes, but on their laptops. I had to go down 6 floors to the stacks to find silence.

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John Lumgair's avatar

Its still pretty amazing to work there.

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JUDY CROSHER's avatar

Oh, yes, I agree absolutely. An incredible privilege.

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Piotr Niedzieski's avatar

We have those Quiet Cars in Poland, and funnily enough, people are respecting it! But I guess it really is chosen by those who want the quiet and thus they behave there ;-)

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