I wouldn't ever show up for a 'show' where the headliner was lip-syncing their music. That activity deserves tomatoes or other items be thrown. Anyone who does that isn't a musician and does not deserve the privilege of performing
These performers are not musicians, they are performers, that's all. Musicians tour in the shittiest pubs and venues for years, home their art. I don't think that anyone going to this show would care. They are there for the spectacle.
In high school I saw Sting at The Ritz (not The Roxy, my mistake) just before Dream of the Blue Turtles came out. The girls in our group brought a little teddy bear for him and wrote their names on the ribbon around its neck. A guy named Kenny was elected to throw it on stage maybe 50-60 feet away. Kenny succeeded too well. He pegged Sting in the chest while he was introducing a song. After a moment of surprise, Sting picked up the teddy bear at his feet and put it on the piano. The girls squealed and jumped like you can imagine, shrieking, "He touched it! He touched it!"
Note: At this same show Sting produced a copy of "Interview with the Vampire," explaining how it influenced "Moon Over Bourbon Street," and for a moment I was happy to be in Mr. Sumner's English class. Then I got the book and devoured it and the first two sequels. Great great show.
I actually gigged in a bar just like that many eons ago. In a place - just like in the movie - where we didn't know a lot of C&W. Getting booked in clubs by the jerk -off Booking Agent who didn't give a damn & would book acts in the wrong places. ( and yes - we did Rawhide many times).
I was going to bring up the BB/Roadhouse chicken wire option. Apparently a bar in Austin used to do a Chicken wire night where they would invite bad bands to play behind the chicken wire scrim and people were free to throw whatever they wanted.
Had no idea that projectiles were such a big thing.
"So the anger isn’t coming from the music. It’s coming from the broader culture."
My first thought is that this is a reflection of peoples' ambivalent attitude towards those who make their music these days, as well as the music being produced (and the broader culture as the article points out). It is a very love-hate relationship. Lots of gratification of a certain kind but other deep needs left unmet. But then again I'm a psychiatrist, so I would say something like that...
Do you think it reflects this culture brought up in likes, views, Kardashians, any 15 minutes that can be attached to a star to feel like a star? Kind of along the lines of what you’re saying but also a desperate attempt at being seen.
Possibly; I'd imagine this kind of thing can happen in various times/circumstances for lots of reasons. But I also think it ultimately boils down to what people expect public events to be like and how we are expected to behave in a more general way. If there were a way to measure it, I'd bet that there is a correlation between, say, this kind of concert disruption and spontaneous fights breaking out at restaurants or big box stores or something like that. Overall lowering of standards of public behavior (not to sound too curmudgeonly about it).
I agree. This has been happening since the 60s. I'll stick my neck out and say the "feminist" movement was right there at the beginning when men were discouraged from opening the car door and the entrance to the restaurant, then holding the chair for his date or wife. This has continued with a breakdown in civility exacerbated by profane language in public, including offensive rap/hip hop songs being played at high volume in public parks. Bad manners prevail; I'm glad my Mom passed a couple of decades ago, she (and therefor my Dad) would be upset....
I think it’s fair to say that it’s not black and white. I love my door being opened! Perhaps I am the only girl I know who wears dresses, loves manners, loves a gentleman- but at the same time, I’m super happy with the comfort our society allows me to be myself.
I don’t think it’s a feminist thing. I’d look at them as separate issues, in my humble opinion.
I enjoy the company of men and I also enjoy a certain refinement. I’m not sure that’s necessarily a feminist issue.
I don't know if it is, considering where the "feminist" movement stands to day, specifically regarding their silence about allowing men who claim (or believe, but who cares?) they are women to participate in women's sports, physiology be damned; men, as a whole, are simply stronger than women. The chromosomes are unalterable.
Living in the south since I was ten years old has thankfully insulated me from the stereotypical "feminists." I now live in Fort Worth, and people here are mostly polite and helpful and polite to each other, and that goes from here to the panhandle of Florida where I grew up and all points in-between. Currently people are holding doors for me as I'm on crutches because of a hip/back problem. As I said,, people are simply nice in my area, and I appreciate that every day. I don't know where you reside, but given the opportunity, I'd be obliged to hold the door for you any time. Crutches make good door stops.
I’m in Texas too! I know people think we are awful but we are the nicest people in the world!
I’ve lived in Texas all my life so I’m very used to the kindness of the people in this state. I still wave thank you to people who let me in in traffic! Manners have definitely been paramount in my life. Perhaps that’s changing but I enjoyed the same upbringing.
Also, I think I’ll hold the door for you right at this moment,if you’ll let me :)
It's only going to get worse. Unless there are clear standards which are followed. There is a socialogical reason why this is happening in numerous social gatherings!
Perhaps from the isolation that occurred during the pandemic? Pent up anger and resentment? Whatever the reason it’s awful and people continue to ruin it for the rest of us. Like they say this is why we can’t have nice things.
Oh my GOD ! Please stop with the Oh-so terrible Pandemic sufferings. And don't get me wrong - I'm not talking about the folks who actually SUFFERED - like the ones who died /or their families / or folks who lost their jobs & savings because of it.
No - I am talking about the millions of other folks who are STILL whining because they were asked to stay home so it might protect the Vulnerable ones. Or be asked to Suffer so terribly by wearing a mask. Or they had to actually spend time in the homes they claim to want ,or the families they supposedly Love. But they are still crying about it.
Are you joking? Leaving aside the specifics of what impact pandemic lockdowns had on people, you honestly think they were no big deal, we shouldn’t be going on about them?
They “trampled” on your precious human rights to try to protect as many people as possible. It didn’t happen to just you or just a single ethnic group, IT HAPPENED TO ALL OF US! They didn’t know a whole lot of anything in the beginning, so they were grasping at straws to see if anything could affect the growing outcome!
It’s people like you that turned it into a political issue, when it was really a medical health issue!
I disagree with the notion that the pandemic is the reason for everything under the sun happening! People just suck & they look for things to rebel or fight against! Stop Your Bullshit!
It sound like you ticked off some guys who are upset that their right to throw a punch ends before it hits someone else's face. There are people like that.
Puhleees, don't turn this into an argument on Who is the (Most) Evil One. Whatever else, people were trapped inside, which can make even an introvert like me cuckoo.
Plenty of people have died with many more being crippled, and the pandemic is still *ongoing*. What with all the other, ahem, interesting things happening, I am more surprised that people are not acting crazier than they already are. Like with throwing hard things at performers.
In agreement with your assessment of the rage around up versus down; concert violence is one of many manifestations. I just published an essay about algorithms, and even customer service now perpetuates this up-versus-down tiering: we've gone from "Delight the customer" to "Delight the best customers, the rest don't matter much," and it sucks. AI will probably make it worse unless we consciously, as a society, pull back on the tiering. People *know* when they're perceived to be in a bottom tier--and are treated that way. And like a thousand tiny cuts over many years, it can build cynicism and then rage.
Great comment. I'd like to add: The trouble with AI is the old maxim: GI Joe (GIGO). AI still has to be programmed by a human, at least in the beginning. ChatGPT's thoughts regarding Islam and Christianity are illustrative, for example.
Large language models like CGPT are merely word order predictions based on enormous amounts of previous writing; AI has no thoughts. And considering the advancements in machine learning models creating code, these algorithms learn in a week what took humans millennia to create. AI is a valid concern for rapid exacerbation of what the article illuminates, as well as the creative connection as a whole.
As a musician I never saw this anywhere but Haiti, where I toured often during the reign of Baby Doc Duvalier. I always played with the top band and this never happened to us, but inferior bands often played behind a wire cage which fended off projectiles. My situation was the opposite: at Baby Doc's palace or a ritzy hotel, when I played a particularly good solo people would approach the stage and throw bills of various denominations into the bell of my saxophone.
Even considering inflation over the past 50 years ($6 to see a headliner in 1970), the price to go see an established star the past decade is insane. These stars' fans, though, are too enamoured of their music to stay away, but, conflicted, are also pissed that they have to shell out half a G to sit in the nosebleeds to see their heroes on a jumbotron screen. The ones in the pit can make a more direct statement of their feelings.
Agreed, ticket costs are just ridiculous. How much money do these mofos need?
I am a pretty serious amateur player and nobody respects good music more than I. But music is a calling, an art, a spiritual practice and though performers deserve compensation it ought not to be about money. Music is its own reward and should not be tainted by any whiff of greed.
Even beyond the fact music and the performance of it should be sacred to both performers and listeners, these “mofos” should be advocates against the grotesque abuses fans undergo at the hands of TicketMaster/Live Nation who are a ticketing MONOPOLY that never ever EVER seem to stop finding fresh ways of exploiting, bleeding, abusing, and humiliating music fans.
(TM has now also incorporated harvesting obscene amounts of user data they should have no business collecting)
And we swallow the bitter pill both performers and fans, because we just want to experience the event and the shared experience and the music.
Fun article. My ex-husband was a bass player (I know. I know but a great guy and world class musician. He trained at Denton) Anyway, one of his yearly gigs was the house band at The Buffalo Chip campground in Sturgis opening for- oh god. You name it. Blue Oyster Cult, Motley Crew, The Classic Rock All Stars...
Those thousands of bikers were totally behaved. Gentlemanly, even. Such a weird time.
In my nearly half century on this planet, I have seen the norms of civility decline, slowly at times and faster at times, but always in decline and eventually too severe to ignore. I would like to think that this will reverse in the decades to come but I see absolutely no reason to believe that.
I wonder if there’s a certain ideology behind most of those concert mass shootings you listed… Maybe there is a “cultural” commonality, and it isn’t music?
I don't think you need to wonder about that. I really can't believe that any of the people who feel the need to wantonly kill people are anything but insane and most likely want some kind of notoriety. There is no good ending to this and preventing it is inherently difficult, but should their lives be ended while in the act, preventing further harm, seems like the best thing that could happen.
Important point - Cardi B ASKED clients to throw water at her because she was hot. She didn't expect to get hit in the face with ice cubes. And now SHE is under investigation for assault for the mic toss. Audiences have hurled tomatoes at bad actors since Shakespearian times. Honky Tonk bars have long featured chicken wire barriers to keep beer bottles from nailing crooners in the noggin. Jazz and classical fans are just lucky enough to not have to sit next to the drunken rabble.
I read about her asking to have water thrown on her because of the heat. Perhaps she should have realized the people who attend her concerts might neglect to consider that ice is, in fact, solid.
Not that I condone this sort of thing... But loving an artist doesn't necessarily mean you LIKE that artist. Why are there men who hit their own wives only to console them afterward? It's an ugly thing. I suspect it comes from a feeling of dependence and insecurity. To feel as though you want, or even need someone, far more than they could ever want or need you, can be intensely frustrating, and some people respond to that discomfort in terribly hostile ways in a desperate bid to exert control over the source of their own satisfaction.
This has been a topic of discussion on the talk show Daily Blast Live (it comes on after my local news) for weeks or months now. Most of the panel has concluded that netting or a screen will become necessary just as it did at baseball and hockey games.
Curious about what you think of that? I personally hope it doesn’t come to that. Reminds me too much of the raw hide scene in Blues Brothers *sigh*
If I paid 100 dollar or more for a concert, I want to hear a life concert not someone flapping there lips pretending to sing
I wouldn't ever show up for a 'show' where the headliner was lip-syncing their music. That activity deserves tomatoes or other items be thrown. Anyone who does that isn't a musician and does not deserve the privilege of performing
These performers are not musicians, they are performers, that's all. Musicians tour in the shittiest pubs and venues for years, home their art. I don't think that anyone going to this show would care. They are there for the spectacle.
You don't sound like the demo for a Cardi B event then. [lol]
Would have thought that Ashlee Simpson’s SNL lip sync debacle in the 2000’s (probably among other examples) would have sent a message...
In high school I saw Sting at The Ritz (not The Roxy, my mistake) just before Dream of the Blue Turtles came out. The girls in our group brought a little teddy bear for him and wrote their names on the ribbon around its neck. A guy named Kenny was elected to throw it on stage maybe 50-60 feet away. Kenny succeeded too well. He pegged Sting in the chest while he was introducing a song. After a moment of surprise, Sting picked up the teddy bear at his feet and put it on the piano. The girls squealed and jumped like you can imagine, shrieking, "He touched it! He touched it!"
Note: At this same show Sting produced a copy of "Interview with the Vampire," explaining how it influenced "Moon Over Bourbon Street," and for a moment I was happy to be in Mr. Sumner's English class. Then I got the book and devoured it and the first two sequels. Great great show.
Edit: Found the setlist! http://www.thepolicewiki.org/Police_wiki/index.php?title=1985-02-26_(Sting)
It's due time to roll down the stage cage for protection! Remember Jake and Elwood.😉
I actually gigged in a bar just like that many eons ago. In a place - just like in the movie - where we didn't know a lot of C&W. Getting booked in clubs by the jerk -off Booking Agent who didn't give a damn & would book acts in the wrong places. ( and yes - we did Rawhide many times).
I was going to bring up the BB/Roadhouse chicken wire option. Apparently a bar in Austin used to do a Chicken wire night where they would invite bad bands to play behind the chicken wire scrim and people were free to throw whatever they wanted.
Had no idea that projectiles were such a big thing.
"So the anger isn’t coming from the music. It’s coming from the broader culture."
My first thought is that this is a reflection of peoples' ambivalent attitude towards those who make their music these days, as well as the music being produced (and the broader culture as the article points out). It is a very love-hate relationship. Lots of gratification of a certain kind but other deep needs left unmet. But then again I'm a psychiatrist, so I would say something like that...
Do you think it reflects this culture brought up in likes, views, Kardashians, any 15 minutes that can be attached to a star to feel like a star? Kind of along the lines of what you’re saying but also a desperate attempt at being seen.
Possibly; I'd imagine this kind of thing can happen in various times/circumstances for lots of reasons. But I also think it ultimately boils down to what people expect public events to be like and how we are expected to behave in a more general way. If there were a way to measure it, I'd bet that there is a correlation between, say, this kind of concert disruption and spontaneous fights breaking out at restaurants or big box stores or something like that. Overall lowering of standards of public behavior (not to sound too curmudgeonly about it).
I agree. This has been happening since the 60s. I'll stick my neck out and say the "feminist" movement was right there at the beginning when men were discouraged from opening the car door and the entrance to the restaurant, then holding the chair for his date or wife. This has continued with a breakdown in civility exacerbated by profane language in public, including offensive rap/hip hop songs being played at high volume in public parks. Bad manners prevail; I'm glad my Mom passed a couple of decades ago, she (and therefor my Dad) would be upset....
I think it’s fair to say that it’s not black and white. I love my door being opened! Perhaps I am the only girl I know who wears dresses, loves manners, loves a gentleman- but at the same time, I’m super happy with the comfort our society allows me to be myself.
I don’t think it’s a feminist thing. I’d look at them as separate issues, in my humble opinion.
I enjoy the company of men and I also enjoy a certain refinement. I’m not sure that’s necessarily a feminist issue.
I don't know if it is, considering where the "feminist" movement stands to day, specifically regarding their silence about allowing men who claim (or believe, but who cares?) they are women to participate in women's sports, physiology be damned; men, as a whole, are simply stronger than women. The chromosomes are unalterable.
Living in the south since I was ten years old has thankfully insulated me from the stereotypical "feminists." I now live in Fort Worth, and people here are mostly polite and helpful and polite to each other, and that goes from here to the panhandle of Florida where I grew up and all points in-between. Currently people are holding doors for me as I'm on crutches because of a hip/back problem. As I said,, people are simply nice in my area, and I appreciate that every day. I don't know where you reside, but given the opportunity, I'd be obliged to hold the door for you any time. Crutches make good door stops.
I’m in Texas too! I know people think we are awful but we are the nicest people in the world!
I’ve lived in Texas all my life so I’m very used to the kindness of the people in this state. I still wave thank you to people who let me in in traffic! Manners have definitely been paramount in my life. Perhaps that’s changing but I enjoyed the same upbringing.
Also, I think I’ll hold the door for you right at this moment,if you’ll let me :)
Whatever the reasons for this behavior, anyone acting in such a disruptive and dangerous manner, should be removed from the concert/event.
It's only going to get worse. Unless there are clear standards which are followed. There is a socialogical reason why this is happening in numerous social gatherings!
Perhaps from the isolation that occurred during the pandemic? Pent up anger and resentment? Whatever the reason it’s awful and people continue to ruin it for the rest of us. Like they say this is why we can’t have nice things.
Oh my GOD ! Please stop with the Oh-so terrible Pandemic sufferings. And don't get me wrong - I'm not talking about the folks who actually SUFFERED - like the ones who died /or their families / or folks who lost their jobs & savings because of it.
No - I am talking about the millions of other folks who are STILL whining because they were asked to stay home so it might protect the Vulnerable ones. Or be asked to Suffer so terribly by wearing a mask. Or they had to actually spend time in the homes they claim to want ,or the families they supposedly Love. But they are still crying about it.
Are you joking? Leaving aside the specifics of what impact pandemic lockdowns had on people, you honestly think they were no big deal, we shouldn’t be going on about them?
They “trampled” on your precious human rights to try to protect as many people as possible. It didn’t happen to just you or just a single ethnic group, IT HAPPENED TO ALL OF US! They didn’t know a whole lot of anything in the beginning, so they were grasping at straws to see if anything could affect the growing outcome!
It’s people like you that turned it into a political issue, when it was really a medical health issue!
I disagree with the notion that the pandemic is the reason for everything under the sun happening! People just suck & they look for things to rebel or fight against! Stop Your Bullshit!
It sound like you ticked off some guys who are upset that their right to throw a punch ends before it hits someone else's face. There are people like that.
Puhleees, don't turn this into an argument on Who is the (Most) Evil One. Whatever else, people were trapped inside, which can make even an introvert like me cuckoo.
Plenty of people have died with many more being crippled, and the pandemic is still *ongoing*. What with all the other, ahem, interesting things happening, I am more surprised that people are not acting crazier than they already are. Like with throwing hard things at performers.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, that despite being "cuckoo" you haven't gone out and thrown things at anyone.
There's no excuse for this behavior unless one accepts a total breakdown of morality. We may be close to that, but I hope we're not there.
In agreement with your assessment of the rage around up versus down; concert violence is one of many manifestations. I just published an essay about algorithms, and even customer service now perpetuates this up-versus-down tiering: we've gone from "Delight the customer" to "Delight the best customers, the rest don't matter much," and it sucks. AI will probably make it worse unless we consciously, as a society, pull back on the tiering. People *know* when they're perceived to be in a bottom tier--and are treated that way. And like a thousand tiny cuts over many years, it can build cynicism and then rage.
Great comment. I'd like to add: The trouble with AI is the old maxim: GI Joe (GIGO). AI still has to be programmed by a human, at least in the beginning. ChatGPT's thoughts regarding Islam and Christianity are illustrative, for example.
Large language models like CGPT are merely word order predictions based on enormous amounts of previous writing; AI has no thoughts. And considering the advancements in machine learning models creating code, these algorithms learn in a week what took humans millennia to create. AI is a valid concern for rapid exacerbation of what the article illuminates, as well as the creative connection as a whole.
As a musician I never saw this anywhere but Haiti, where I toured often during the reign of Baby Doc Duvalier. I always played with the top band and this never happened to us, but inferior bands often played behind a wire cage which fended off projectiles. My situation was the opposite: at Baby Doc's palace or a ritzy hotel, when I played a particularly good solo people would approach the stage and throw bills of various denominations into the bell of my saxophone.
Even considering inflation over the past 50 years ($6 to see a headliner in 1970), the price to go see an established star the past decade is insane. These stars' fans, though, are too enamoured of their music to stay away, but, conflicted, are also pissed that they have to shell out half a G to sit in the nosebleeds to see their heroes on a jumbotron screen. The ones in the pit can make a more direct statement of their feelings.
Agreed, ticket costs are just ridiculous. How much money do these mofos need?
I am a pretty serious amateur player and nobody respects good music more than I. But music is a calling, an art, a spiritual practice and though performers deserve compensation it ought not to be about money. Music is its own reward and should not be tainted by any whiff of greed.
Most of the money isn’t going to the performers, it’s going to Live Nation et al
Even beyond the fact music and the performance of it should be sacred to both performers and listeners, these “mofos” should be advocates against the grotesque abuses fans undergo at the hands of TicketMaster/Live Nation who are a ticketing MONOPOLY that never ever EVER seem to stop finding fresh ways of exploiting, bleeding, abusing, and humiliating music fans.
(TM has now also incorporated harvesting obscene amounts of user data they should have no business collecting)
And we swallow the bitter pill both performers and fans, because we just want to experience the event and the shared experience and the music.
Fun article. My ex-husband was a bass player (I know. I know but a great guy and world class musician. He trained at Denton) Anyway, one of his yearly gigs was the house band at The Buffalo Chip campground in Sturgis opening for- oh god. You name it. Blue Oyster Cult, Motley Crew, The Classic Rock All Stars...
Those thousands of bikers were totally behaved. Gentlemanly, even. Such a weird time.
In my nearly half century on this planet, I have seen the norms of civility decline, slowly at times and faster at times, but always in decline and eventually too severe to ignore. I would like to think that this will reverse in the decades to come but I see absolutely no reason to believe that.
Yup. Cultural decline.
I wonder if there’s a certain ideology behind most of those concert mass shootings you listed… Maybe there is a “cultural” commonality, and it isn’t music?
I don't think you need to wonder about that. I really can't believe that any of the people who feel the need to wantonly kill people are anything but insane and most likely want some kind of notoriety. There is no good ending to this and preventing it is inherently difficult, but should their lives be ended while in the act, preventing further harm, seems like the best thing that could happen.
I do agree that we're approaching the peak, but I wonder how far we are from seeing the results if a cooling cycle.
Can’t be soon enough
Music certainly is in the battlefield. Trumpets were blown before the walls of Jericho fell.
When the walls were excavated, they found that they had fallen straight down, exactly as described.
Important point - Cardi B ASKED clients to throw water at her because she was hot. She didn't expect to get hit in the face with ice cubes. And now SHE is under investigation for assault for the mic toss. Audiences have hurled tomatoes at bad actors since Shakespearian times. Honky Tonk bars have long featured chicken wire barriers to keep beer bottles from nailing crooners in the noggin. Jazz and classical fans are just lucky enough to not have to sit next to the drunken rabble.
I read about her asking to have water thrown on her because of the heat. Perhaps she should have realized the people who attend her concerts might neglect to consider that ice is, in fact, solid.
Not that I condone this sort of thing... But loving an artist doesn't necessarily mean you LIKE that artist. Why are there men who hit their own wives only to console them afterward? It's an ugly thing. I suspect it comes from a feeling of dependence and insecurity. To feel as though you want, or even need someone, far more than they could ever want or need you, can be intensely frustrating, and some people respond to that discomfort in terribly hostile ways in a desperate bid to exert control over the source of their own satisfaction.
This has been a topic of discussion on the talk show Daily Blast Live (it comes on after my local news) for weeks or months now. Most of the panel has concluded that netting or a screen will become necessary just as it did at baseball and hockey games.
Curious about what you think of that? I personally hope it doesn’t come to that. Reminds me too much of the raw hide scene in Blues Brothers *sigh*