It would be interesting to see competitions on specific sub-skills of the creative arts -- for example, the observational skills and memory to observe a specific event and present it in visual form; the ability to improvise on a musical theme; dance is not far from gymnastics (or artistic swimming) so our paradigm for that comes ready-made; to sculpt an assigned subject with objects provided; to summarize (engagingly) in language a larger work, or even a moment in history... I think if we were actually to SEE and appreciate all the skills that go into creating artworks and performances, seeing routes to real-time competition (as opposed to just presenting finished, labored-over, works in a gallery or concert hall) would be easy and actually very exciting!
Amy, I find that to be a fascinating idea! Competitions focused on specific sub-skills of the creative arts could truly highlight the intricate talents involved. Imagine watching artists capture an event from memory, musicians improvise on a theme, or dancers blend choreography with gymnastics precision.
Sculptors creating from provided objects and writers summarizing complex works or historical moments would be equally compelling. Such competitions would not only be exciting but also educational, offering a deeper appreciation for the diverse skills required in the arts.
It could provide a new way to engage audiences and celebrate the creative process in real-time. This approach could transform how we perceive and value artistic talents indeed!
Dancesport is already SO close. Breakdancing was in the youth Olympics of 2016.
And am I the only one who's been to a club night where painters show up and compete to see who can make the judge favorite over a mere couple of hours?
"Ancient sources tell us that he could play two trumpets at once, a feat that allegedly inspired Macedonian troops during the siege of Argos in 303 BC."
Hah! Rahsaan Roland Kirk could play about half a dozen instruments at once employing circular breathing. Those ancient Greeks would have lost their minds over him...
Kirk played 3 saxophones simultaneously. The tenor sax, manzello and stritch. He employed overtone singing with his flute playing. Clark Terry played two trumpets simultaneously.
San Francisco blues man Jesse Fuller could simultaneously play guitar, percussion with one foot, the fotdella (a pedal bass he invented) with his other foot, all while trading off vocals with playing harmonica and kazoo held on a shoulder rack. It was amazing how much music that one man could make and how much energy he had even in his later years!
O god no. They’ve sportified the whole damn world! You can hardly walk into a restaurant or bar these days without 19 screens surrounding you with games, games, games!
I went to a wedding, and the wedding party entered the reception hall just like they were two teams coming onto a football field—two by two with the DJ announcing the “event.” And the dancing?! My god! It’s all devolved into a single uniform pumping motion, reminiscent of cheering in the stands of a match—complete with rainbow colored glow-sticks!
When all the impressionists were singing the praises of plein air painting at a dinner party, Degas said “painting is not sport,” and retired to his studio. I’d love to hear this crotchety old wit’s commentary on this post.
Oh Ya - all of what you said. Loved your description of "Modern Dancing" - Ya, it has devolved into mainly synchronized Team sports with endless little repetitious moves stuck together without any swing, soul, or spontaneity. Absolutely Insipid
The next president should put her weight behind supporting the arts. It is _long_ past time that such a thing happens. The Olympics are an ideal venue, at least seemingly, until it’s hosted by an authoritarian country that sees arts as counter to its interests and at best will simply use it as a propaganda tool.
Conversely I hate the idea of competition in the arts. I think Ted completely loses the thread here. Competition is a great way to discourage and repress artists of all types and I feel the very idea is antithetical. Of course you can’t just uncritically accept anyone in such a context. But art of course is not a sport. Since the Olympics is pretty much a fully corrupt enterprise, what would stop our existing corporate arts oligarchies from dominating the process? Who enforces fairness?
I agree with your point about competition in the arts, but the Pareto principle applied to visual arts, music and literature implies a higher level of competition than business or sports. It’s a difficult paradox.
Good point. (Quickly Googles “Pareto principle”) 🤣 I will say that I’m uniquely allergic to the idea of competition in art. My view isn’t the be-all of this subject. I just reject it on a personal level
Well, there's Snoop Dogg... I hear he's been invited to carry the Olympic torch through the final stages. Whether he qualifies as an artist or not is a matter of opinion.
I am, at this very moment watching a replay of yesterday's opening Olympic ceremony. It is showing the athletes on the boats going down the Seine mixed in with lots of "Live" performances & some pre-taped show biz stuff.
I just happened upon it this morning on You Tube & thought "Oh, I'll glance at this. Here I am, taking a break & I'm over 2 hours in. I have seen a bit of criticism online about it, but my my - you can't blink these days without something being wrong. I don't care I have found it quite exciting & exhilarating ,sometimes old fashioned & sometimes Modern. It has been Inspiring & Emotional - showing many locations my now deceased ,but still much loved wife of 35 years & I went in a quick visit about 10 years ago.
I am enjoying this event & Thank Goodness for You Tube & all the folks out there in the world who saved a Lot of great stuff !
Oh Ya - Snoop Dog ? Supposedly he is supposed to attract the "Youth". Really ? His appearances (slight though they have been) were mostly the same Yawn inducing stuff he normally does ...
Good idea, Ted. For some reason, I have always associated Erik Satie's "Gymnopédies" with ancient Greece and the games. Maybe it was due to the circumstances under which I first heard them by accident on an old record in my father's record collection. It was the orchestrated versions by Debussy with the great Serge Koussevitzy conducting the BSO.
It is somewhat difficult to explain in words. I was maybe 20 years old at the time. I first listened to the music at night. I was home alone in my bedroom. I had not expected the somewhat mystical tone of the piece. Then I kept replaying it. The association to ancient Greece came much later when I read up on Satie and its connection to dances of the athletes in Greece. A few years later Blood Sweat and Tears did a version, but I preferred and still prefer the version recorded in 1939. Later I came across the pianist Aldo Ciccolini's recordings of Satie's music.
In high school and college the jazz ensembles I was in traveled to festivals — which were competitions. Best ensemble, best sax soloist (I never won), etc. The groups I was in consistently earned top honors,which was gratifying and spurred me in the direction of creating a local jazz ensemble as an adult.
But it never was about the competition. It was about being part of something bigger than us. Forty years later, some of us maintain friendships that were forged when we learned to “breathe as one.”
My own experience is but a pale shadow of yours, but I was a member of my high school quiz team; we were a tiny rural school but we won against larger, richer schools enough rounds to get to the semifinals. Our triumph was rewarded with a luncheon with the mayor of Indianapolis — Richard Lugar. I still have the autographed photo.
The opening scene of Peter Brook's Meetings With Remarkable Men (based on the life of Gurdjieff) is a contest of musicians taking place in a remote mountain village. The winner will be the musician who, by virtue of purity of tone and emotional depth, can make the mountains sing a response to his song.
The ancient greeks who believed rhythmical music aided long jump performances have a mirror today in the long jumpers in particular but also other individual, explosive sports encouraging the crowd to (rhythmically) clap and thus help propel them a few cm farther. Full circle.
Life Magazine had a memorable tribute to Olympic athletes in July, 1996. "Naked power, amazing grace - a photographic celebration of the Olympic body, athletic beauty, photos include Mark Henry (weightlifter), Michael Johnson (runner), Sharon Monplaisir (fencer), Carl Lewis (runner), Mary Ellen Clark (diver), Gail Devers (runner), Margot Thien and Nathalie Schneyder (synchronized swimmers), Gwen Torrence (runner), Jackie Joyner-Kersee (Heptathlete), Rick McNair - Alex Rousseau - Chris Humbert - Chris Duplanty (water polo team), Russ Bertram (diver), Holly McPeak (volleyball). "
Maybe late for this, but Breaking was at the Olympics, can be considered art and... we all saw what happened to the australian girl, not sure what you think about it. I think there's a very fine line for arts at the Olympics to work nowadays, but I agree that some sort of Eurovision-style competition could be interesting!
It would be interesting to see competitions on specific sub-skills of the creative arts -- for example, the observational skills and memory to observe a specific event and present it in visual form; the ability to improvise on a musical theme; dance is not far from gymnastics (or artistic swimming) so our paradigm for that comes ready-made; to sculpt an assigned subject with objects provided; to summarize (engagingly) in language a larger work, or even a moment in history... I think if we were actually to SEE and appreciate all the skills that go into creating artworks and performances, seeing routes to real-time competition (as opposed to just presenting finished, labored-over, works in a gallery or concert hall) would be easy and actually very exciting!
Amy, I find that to be a fascinating idea! Competitions focused on specific sub-skills of the creative arts could truly highlight the intricate talents involved. Imagine watching artists capture an event from memory, musicians improvise on a theme, or dancers blend choreography with gymnastics precision.
Sculptors creating from provided objects and writers summarizing complex works or historical moments would be equally compelling. Such competitions would not only be exciting but also educational, offering a deeper appreciation for the diverse skills required in the arts.
It could provide a new way to engage audiences and celebrate the creative process in real-time. This approach could transform how we perceive and value artistic talents indeed!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancesport
Dancesport is already SO close. Breakdancing was in the youth Olympics of 2016.
And am I the only one who's been to a club night where painters show up and compete to see who can make the judge favorite over a mere couple of hours?
And name that tune TOURNAMENTS!
"Ancient sources tell us that he could play two trumpets at once, a feat that allegedly inspired Macedonian troops during the siege of Argos in 303 BC."
Hah! Rahsaan Roland Kirk could play about half a dozen instruments at once employing circular breathing. Those ancient Greeks would have lost their minds over him...
Kirk played 3 saxophones simultaneously. The tenor sax, manzello and stritch. He employed overtone singing with his flute playing. Clark Terry played two trumpets simultaneously.
San Francisco blues man Jesse Fuller could simultaneously play guitar, percussion with one foot, the fotdella (a pedal bass he invented) with his other foot, all while trading off vocals with playing harmonica and kazoo held on a shoulder rack. It was amazing how much music that one man could make and how much energy he had even in his later years!
O god no. They’ve sportified the whole damn world! You can hardly walk into a restaurant or bar these days without 19 screens surrounding you with games, games, games!
I went to a wedding, and the wedding party entered the reception hall just like they were two teams coming onto a football field—two by two with the DJ announcing the “event.” And the dancing?! My god! It’s all devolved into a single uniform pumping motion, reminiscent of cheering in the stands of a match—complete with rainbow colored glow-sticks!
When all the impressionists were singing the praises of plein air painting at a dinner party, Degas said “painting is not sport,” and retired to his studio. I’d love to hear this crotchety old wit’s commentary on this post.
Oh Ya - all of what you said. Loved your description of "Modern Dancing" - Ya, it has devolved into mainly synchronized Team sports with endless little repetitious moves stuck together without any swing, soul, or spontaneity. Absolutely Insipid
The next president should put her weight behind supporting the arts. It is _long_ past time that such a thing happens. The Olympics are an ideal venue, at least seemingly, until it’s hosted by an authoritarian country that sees arts as counter to its interests and at best will simply use it as a propaganda tool.
Conversely I hate the idea of competition in the arts. I think Ted completely loses the thread here. Competition is a great way to discourage and repress artists of all types and I feel the very idea is antithetical. Of course you can’t just uncritically accept anyone in such a context. But art of course is not a sport. Since the Olympics is pretty much a fully corrupt enterprise, what would stop our existing corporate arts oligarchies from dominating the process? Who enforces fairness?
I agree with your point about competition in the arts, but the Pareto principle applied to visual arts, music and literature implies a higher level of competition than business or sports. It’s a difficult paradox.
Good point. (Quickly Googles “Pareto principle”) 🤣 I will say that I’m uniquely allergic to the idea of competition in art. My view isn’t the be-all of this subject. I just reject it on a personal level
Well, there's Snoop Dogg... I hear he's been invited to carry the Olympic torch through the final stages. Whether he qualifies as an artist or not is a matter of opinion.
What exact substances might be fueling the Olympic flame while Snoop is carrying it?
lol 😂 you probably know what it is
Burning olive wreaths, what else. In true Olympian spirit.
I am, at this very moment watching a replay of yesterday's opening Olympic ceremony. It is showing the athletes on the boats going down the Seine mixed in with lots of "Live" performances & some pre-taped show biz stuff.
I just happened upon it this morning on You Tube & thought "Oh, I'll glance at this. Here I am, taking a break & I'm over 2 hours in. I have seen a bit of criticism online about it, but my my - you can't blink these days without something being wrong. I don't care I have found it quite exciting & exhilarating ,sometimes old fashioned & sometimes Modern. It has been Inspiring & Emotional - showing many locations my now deceased ,but still much loved wife of 35 years & I went in a quick visit about 10 years ago.
I am enjoying this event & Thank Goodness for You Tube & all the folks out there in the world who saved a Lot of great stuff !
Oh Ya - Snoop Dog ? Supposedly he is supposed to attract the "Youth". Really ? His appearances (slight though they have been) were mostly the same Yawn inducing stuff he normally does ...
Good idea, Ted. For some reason, I have always associated Erik Satie's "Gymnopédies" with ancient Greece and the games. Maybe it was due to the circumstances under which I first heard them by accident on an old record in my father's record collection. It was the orchestrated versions by Debussy with the great Serge Koussevitzy conducting the BSO.
Marco, that's an interesting association with Erik Satie's "Gymnopédies."
How did the experience of discovering this music influence your appreciation of both the music itself and ancient Greek culture?
It is somewhat difficult to explain in words. I was maybe 20 years old at the time. I first listened to the music at night. I was home alone in my bedroom. I had not expected the somewhat mystical tone of the piece. Then I kept replaying it. The association to ancient Greece came much later when I read up on Satie and its connection to dances of the athletes in Greece. A few years later Blood Sweat and Tears did a version, but I preferred and still prefer the version recorded in 1939. Later I came across the pianist Aldo Ciccolini's recordings of Satie's music.
Jazz has always had a competitive element. witness the cutting contests and super fast tempos
In high school and college the jazz ensembles I was in traveled to festivals — which were competitions. Best ensemble, best sax soloist (I never won), etc. The groups I was in consistently earned top honors,which was gratifying and spurred me in the direction of creating a local jazz ensemble as an adult.
But it never was about the competition. It was about being part of something bigger than us. Forty years later, some of us maintain friendships that were forged when we learned to “breathe as one.”
My own experience is but a pale shadow of yours, but I was a member of my high school quiz team; we were a tiny rural school but we won against larger, richer schools enough rounds to get to the semifinals. Our triumph was rewarded with a luncheon with the mayor of Indianapolis — Richard Lugar. I still have the autographed photo.
Ah those trumpet players and their appetites have never changed from the dawn of time!
The opening scene of Peter Brook's Meetings With Remarkable Men (based on the life of Gurdjieff) is a contest of musicians taking place in a remote mountain village. The winner will be the musician who, by virtue of purity of tone and emotional depth, can make the mountains sing a response to his song.
Many musicians were called. Only one was chosen.
The prize was a goat.
Su, that scene sounds deeply evocative and symbolic.
How do you think such depictions of purity and emotional depth in art influence our understanding and appreciation of music?
Hi Sol, watch the scene and you will have the answer to your question. It's free on YouTube.
The ancient greeks who believed rhythmical music aided long jump performances have a mirror today in the long jumpers in particular but also other individual, explosive sports encouraging the crowd to (rhythmically) clap and thus help propel them a few cm farther. Full circle.
Life Magazine had a memorable tribute to Olympic athletes in July, 1996. "Naked power, amazing grace - a photographic celebration of the Olympic body, athletic beauty, photos include Mark Henry (weightlifter), Michael Johnson (runner), Sharon Monplaisir (fencer), Carl Lewis (runner), Mary Ellen Clark (diver), Gail Devers (runner), Margot Thien and Nathalie Schneyder (synchronized swimmers), Gwen Torrence (runner), Jackie Joyner-Kersee (Heptathlete), Rick McNair - Alex Rousseau - Chris Humbert - Chris Duplanty (water polo team), Russ Bertram (diver), Holly McPeak (volleyball). "
In 1984 in Los Angeles, there was the Olympic Arts Festival.
Yes! It was chaired by Robert Fitzpatrick, then president of Cal-Arts.
Athletic competition, and even science, are incentivized towards a defined goal. "Altius fortius..." and all that.
Art is not. This seems like a great way to incentivize mediocrity.
They used to give Olympic medals for Town Planning, as my history teacher explained long ago. See: https://www.planetizen.com/node/87885/going-gold-when-town-planning-was-olympic-competition
Maybe late for this, but Breaking was at the Olympics, can be considered art and... we all saw what happened to the australian girl, not sure what you think about it. I think there's a very fine line for arts at the Olympics to work nowadays, but I agree that some sort of Eurovision-style competition could be interesting!