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DG's avatar

I share my brother Ted's late life discovery of the Western as a favorite genre.

I should also mention that our Mexican great-grandfather and grandfather actually were cowboys--vaqueros--though that was already long in the past by the time we were born.

In fact, our great-grandfather Juan Jesus Ortiz was shot and killed in a bar in Lost Cabin, Wyoming. Both of his sons were soon supporting their mother by riding cattle drives. Our grandfather quit life on the range and ended up in Los Angeles.

Greg Gioia's avatar

This makes three Gioia brothers who are fans of Westerns. I enjoy many of the classic Westerns, but also get a kick out of the over-the-top schlock found in the lesser-known Spaghetti Westerns. And despite its runtime, I really, really like Leone's Once Upon a Time in the West.

Candace Lynn Talmadge's avatar

Lordy! Three Gioia brothers?! One named Ted is often more than my brain can handle.

Wanda's avatar
Feb 8Edited

Brother Dana writes swell poems. You should read some. (^_^)

Muriel Palmer-Rhea's avatar

Don’t leave us hanging! SHARE !

Greg Gioia's avatar

Speaking of siblings, are you related to the Talmadge sisters, Norma and Constance, who were stars of the silent film era?

Candace Lynn Talmadge's avatar

Not that I know of. You are showing either your age or your knowledge of Hollywood (or both) to mention them. When I was young, my mother told me I was not related to Georgia politician Herman Talmadge, either. "And even if you were," she exclaimed, "you would never admit it!" But my LA childhood was Hollywood adjacent. My paternal grandmother was discovered in a Hollywood drugstore during the silent movie era. Her film career died when my great-grandmother sternly told her good girls didn't make movies. And she listened, damnit! She could have been the woman to found her own movie studio (she was that smart) instead of Mary Pickford.

Skip Gole's avatar

I agree with your film preference. The dramatic scenes shot in Once Upon a Time in the West made what happened in it so memorable. The best was the opening scene with its hissing steam, groaning water pump, wailing harmonica, and quick, staccato gunfire shots, which made it unforgettable. The rest of the film wasn't as strong, but Henry Fonda, as the worst of the bad men, was a revelation. He showed a true, evil nature when he told his boss why he killed everyone. His boss couldn't understand why; Frank said, "People scare better when they're dying." Hard to describe this, but when I remember that scene, I feel scared and alone. It was chilling.

Espe's avatar

Agree! The evil character “Frank” played so well by Henry Fonda, that I could barely believe it WAS Fonda. The evil he portrayed made him well nigh unrecognizable. One of my favorite movies.

Skip Gole's avatar

Yeah, I should've put that in my mini-review. When watching, I kept wanting to back away from the screen. He completely disappeared. He was 'Frank'. What an evil, sick person.

Tom Besson's avatar

If you've watched "Death Of Stalin", you'll know that he was a fan of western movies. My guess is that Stalin got out of them what he needed to think that he, too, wore a white hat.

Louis L'Amour's memoir, "Education of a Wandering Man", describes a character about as close as one gets to moral unambiguity. Louis came of age during The Great Depression. That event was about as challenging as it gets in modern times to existential survival, and where Mr. L'Amour found his moral clarity in it.

Kaleberg's avatar

Stalin was fond of Westerns because he felt it gave him insight into the minds of Western leadership. He also watched a lot of other Hollywood movies aside from Westerns to better understand the Western mindset.

An American Writer & Essayist's avatar

Death of Stalin is a fantastic movie, hilarious too. And Louis L’Amour is one of America’s gifts to Literature.

David Franklin's avatar

I still re-watch Shane

from time to time and often tear up when he beats hired gun Wilson to the draw and “rides off into the sunset,” leaving the townfolk safe again.

Roger Landes's avatar

No discussion of the Western genre is complete without mentioning "Unforgiven." Serious oversight there...

Ted Gioia's avatar

This article wasn’t intended as a history of westerns. But you will be happy to know that I will soon publish a guide to 40 essential western films, and Unforgiven is included.

Roger Landes's avatar

Excellent! Thank you for your reply. Looking forward to the article.

Sean H's avatar

there were quite a few black cowboys in the 19th century post bellum..they never get mentioned much

Ted Gioia's avatar

That's true. I have an unpublished article about African-American western films that I will probably share at some point. (My father was friends with Herb Jeffries, who played a key role in the genre—and also sang with the Ellington band. What a career!)

Bill Kirchner's avatar

Herb Jeffries was revered by the Black American community. Herbie Hancock (né Herbert Jeffrey Hancock) was named for him.

Mark Coffey's avatar

The Texas Coastal Bend Collection - http://preview.texascoastalbend.org is an astounding documentation of the ranching culture in South Texas - black cowboys, vaqueros and the Irish immigration. All the ranch hands (cowboys) were black and hispanic up to about 1970. 1400 hours of audio interviews. Check out Milam Thompson easily one of the most remarkable humans I've ever met.

Alan's avatar

You're right. There are just a few I remember. I'm old enough to remember when Raymond St. Jacques first appeared in Rawhide in 1965. According to IMDB he was in 13 episodes. He's the first black cowboy I remember seeing on TV or movies.

I always thought Roscoe Lee Brown in the John Wayne movie "The Cowboys" was outstanding. There were other movies and TV show with sophisticated characters in the mix, but Mr. Nightlinger was the best.

Jane Baker's avatar

This article is fascinating. Re black cowboys. In 1996 I visited my cousin in Victoria bc and found a link to some family history research I was doing but not expecting it to be there,this I spent some time at the archives and library. I spent time reading through the old newspapers circa 1900 on microfilm. Getting very distracted of course. So much to read! The local paper was doing a series on old folk in Victoria bc who had been part of the USA wild West,seems that old cowboys and gals who didn't end up on Boot Hill retired to Victoria bc. Needless to say it was fascinating. One old guy recalled his time with Doc Holiday,part of the shifting group of associates,Doc was challenged to a gun fight by a nervous young lad with shaky hands who obviously hoped to gain an instant reputation by killing a big shot. So the Doc didn't even stand up from the table where he was playing poker,he replied to the young man's challenge ....and I'm sorry but what he said was...." there is plenty of uppity n.....RS out there,start on one of them". What this remark shows is not just the coolness of a famed and skilled gunslinger,and the callous racism that was normal,it also reveals that there were indeed plenty of black men who had taken up this various forms of employment in the Old West.

Mark Coffey's avatar

Check out http://preview.texascoastalbend.org If you know Victoria Texas then you know the name O'Connor. This project is Louise O'Connor's.

Jane Baker's avatar

Thank you for this link. I've read some and will read more. In the old days cohesive communities formed that doesn't happen today. The Victoria I referenced is the one in British Columbia Canada but I love to read about history and this,of the San Antonio valley,all new to me is so interesting too.

Espe's avatar

Paramount+ has a good mini series about the black lawman, Bass Reeves. But you’re right, definitely overlooked in general.

Howard Chaykin's avatar

Take a serious look at the collaborations between Antony Mann and James Stewart in WINCHESTER .73, THE NAKED SPUR, THE FAR COUNTRY, and BEND IN THE RIVER, as well as MAN OF THE WEST with Gary Cooper, and THE TIN STAR, with Henry Fonda. These are truly superior, albeit modestly budgeted features that, like John Ford's work, and to a lesser extent that of Budd Boetticher, transcend the genre.

Crixcyon's avatar

Some of my favorites.

InternalMedicineDoc's avatar

I have recently come across a 12 film BLU-RAY set of some of the Westerns done by Columbia in the 1950s that all starred Randolph Scott. The best of the lot was a film from 1957 called The Tall T. I am proud to say my kids love to watch these films with me. And this one in particular really showed off integrity in the face of very complicated moral dilemmas.

I do think it is good for kids to watch this type of thing.

One other thing. Not in just this set, but so many other Westerns from the era…….they were shot in bright Technicolor. The lighting and color were so intense as to be from a different world. It makes them easy to view. So many, if not most, of our films today are shot in this kind of faded out black or gray with eternal dark. It is very difficult to watch as the characters are often so faded that you cannot follow the plot. So many times today I find myself squinting in the theater or watching our TV at home. This has even caused me to walk out or quit watching mid-stream on so many films. I have no idea why they do this, but it is profoundly annoying.

Don Hyde's avatar

The best Randolph Scott was his last one and the last classic western “ Ride the High Country” by Sam Peckinpah…1962.

Dheep''s avatar

In total agreement about the Dark ,Murky or "Blue" tinge to it all. Add to that the Subpar Sound & Mixing /Dialogue of so many Tv & Movies today. (Sitting in an Editing bay on & PC doing "Color Correction" . Oh, that's "Contemporary or Edgy"

I suppose. a Lot of it just looks & Sounds like Garbage

Jane Baker's avatar

Ive tried to watch one or two contemporary films,on DVD,rom come,the sort of thing "everyone else" raves about and I gave up the attempt because they seemed to be shot in a half light and all the action taking place in semi-darkness. And I only mean conversations or everyday actions like vacuuming and such. I gave up. These films didn't have the clarity of old Hollywood movies where the lighting must have been expert. It was like these were filmed in stygian darkness with a hand torch. And they were boring anyway.

Dheep''s avatar

And plain Lazy practices (what you describe) ,lack of knowledge & films run by "Producers" who don't know Doodly Squat about real Film Making

W. R. Dunn's avatar

The other myth we had found expression in “The Wizard of Oz” and “it’s a Wonderful Life.”

Ordinary folk have everything they need to make a good life by way of honest persistence and mutual decency.

It was more or less true in some places for a while. But the limits also always encroached. Dreams survive reality only by effort.

Jane Baker's avatar

Which is why (I theories or even suspect) that simple happiness has to be traduced by the narrative controllers.

+ and -'s avatar

If you want to find out what frontier life was like, you should read "Preserving Populist, the Life of Frank Doster" by Michael J. Broadhead. He happens to be my Great Great Grandfather. Nothing like the movies. He fought for the rights of the people against the overbearing railroads and cattle ranchers. He was a frontier lawyer who later ran for the Senate and was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Kansas. No gunfights, no Indian wars. Kind of boring.

equinoxia's avatar

i found that same tension between good/bad and nihilism/moral order to be present in the AMC western series "Hell on Wheels," which i enjoyed greatly.

Sean H's avatar

I really dug that show Hell on Wheels..a lot...the transcon railroad, the confederates drifting west after the civil war, injuns...low budget and I enjoyed it a ton

Dheep''s avatar

Funny ,was gonna re-watch that again before too long

Amy Culbertson's avatar

A minor correction: McMurtry's aim in writing "Lonesome Dove" was not to revive the romanticism of the cowboy life; it was, indeed, the exact opposite; he wanted to put paid to all those myths. He certainly did not expect the book and the ensuing miniseries to spark a minor revival of the Western as a genre: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/25/larry-mcmurtry-a-life-tracy-daugherty-book-review

It's been my contention for some time now that part of the reason for the stubborn persistence of populist right-wing ideology in this country is that a lot of the folks who watched all those Westerns -- and my Central Texas family was certainly among that audience -- internalized their mythology as ideal reality. The movie that now plays in these folks' heads about how government should be conducted and a country should be run is essentially formed from those Westerns they watched in their youth -- which never had anything to do with reality in the first place and are certainly no model from which to construct a worldview, or anything else.

Rich Horton's avatar

We just watched Lonesome Dove, the miniseries, and I agree with you (and, I suppose, McMurtry). Lonesome Dove is full of senseless killings, terrible mistreatment of women, sheer danger and bad luck leading to tragedy, and seemingly useless human action. The two central characters are deeply flawed people. At the same time there are moments of great beauty, and a sense of striving, of hard work at building something. It seems to me a purposely mixed, complex message.

Some of the very greatest depictions of life in the old West are in Willa Cather's novels, and it struck me in watching the miniseries that the scenes in Nebraska -- where Clara lived -- are set not too far from where My Antonia, O Pioneers!, and A Lost Lady are set; and not too much later. (Lonesome Dove is set in 1879 or so, and My Antonia begins in the early 1880s (about when Cather moved to Nebraska, of course.)) The Nebraska of those stories is not quite so vicious a place as depicted in Lonesome Dove, though it is hardly without hardships.

Alan's avatar

Cather's Death Comes for the Archbishop is a terrific.

Dheep''s avatar

"senseless killings, terrible mistreatment of women, sheer danger and bad luck leading to tragedy, and seemingly useless human action"

Doesn't seem it is confined to just the Western Genre. It has been a feature of Real / Reel life in Ah-Mare-Kah for some time it seems

Johnny Apple Tree's avatar

Ted would benefit greatly from reading this novel beginning to end. The story deepens to an almost unimaginable degree by the end.

Ted Gioia's avatar

I have read it from beginning to end—and read it slowly and carefully. And I enjoyed the book. My comments shouldn’t be interpreted as hostile or negative.

Austin Ruse's avatar

I have a different view of Yellowstone. I think there are no good guys.

Dheep''s avatar

Unlike Sheridan's earlier work ,the newer stuff is nothing but Kinda Right Wing Turgid SOAP.

But who can Blame him ? (Sheridan) He has for a while seemed to have found a certain Brass Ring concerning the Dreck being churned out now. He seems to really be utilizing his 15 minutes to the max. (See Billy Bob Chew up every possible bit of Scenery around).

Alan's avatar

I thought I was the only one.

Kaleberg's avatar

The Western frontier closed late in the 19th century. By the early 20th century, Western nostalgia and myth making were captured in Wild West shows like Buffalo Bill's. There were countless books and magazines. Then came the movies with one reel magic and mystery shows set in the Wild West. By the time talkies came out, the stories were much more sophisticated and emphasized the nostalgic theme that the Wild West was in the past. You could still homestead into the 1960s, but, unless you wanted to settle in the Alaskan wilderness, your options were limited.

Hugh's avatar

I am in partial agreement with you Ted. I hated Westerns growing up--and still have zero interest in them when they turn up on TCM. The cowboys, played by terrible actors like John Wayne, were totally uncool. I sympathized with the Indians instead. Even the settings--the tumbleweed-strewn countrysides; the hot, dry, dusty towns; the saloons--were unappealing. Oddly enough, one of my all-time favorite movies is a revisionist Western--Robert Altman's gorgeous McCabe and Mrs. Miller. I hope you include it in your guide--that and The Wild Bunch.

Khalid's avatar

Agreed. M & M is a good film.

To talk of "moral authority" is-to my mind at least- somewhat delusional (as if one could ignore slavery and the genocide of the "İndians").

Maybe the genre fits in with the missionary zeal: America (the cavalry) to save the day? As the kids say nowadays: cringe!

Fred Levitan's avatar

While I don’t dispute your characterization of Star Wars as a cowboy movie analogue, I would say rather than George Lucas inventing the new genre of space Western, he drew inspiration from Gene Roddenberry, who quite deliberately created Star Trek to be “Wagon Train to the Stars” when he wrote the pilot in 1964. Lucas, to my mind, has been more associated with Joseph Campbell and the Hero’s Journey mythological trope. Subsequently, Joss Whedon took the space cowboy thing to its logical extreme with Firefly.

Dheep''s avatar

I never understood why anybody (but there is a lot of them) had a problem with certain "Western" aspects of Firefly as Humans moved into Space. Made perfect sense as to why things broke down ,farther from the center. Made for a really fun mix ...

Jane Baker's avatar

Gene Roddenbury was a Satanist.

Jane Baker's avatar

To quote the sensibly impertinent Mandy Rice -Davies ,”he would say that wouldn't he”. I expect Satan sees himself as a self-appointed secular humanist.

Mark Saleski's avatar

Isn't The Satanic Temple basically a secular humanist organization (unlike The Church of Satan)?

Fred Levitan's avatar

Absolutely! I love their initiative for schools to sponsor after-school Satan clubs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_School_Satan

"We're like vampires," said June Everett, After School Satan Club Campaign Director. "We only go where we're invited."[7] The program neither teaches about Satanism nor attempts to convert club-goers; it instead teaches about rationalism and scientific discovery. It is against the beliefs of The Satanic Temple to teach religious practice in schools. The Satanic Temple rejects supernatural beliefs and views Satan as a literary symbol of rebellion against authority, not as a supernatural entity.[8]

Mark Saleski's avatar

Yeah, there was a new item not too long ago about a school board having a proposal to allow after school religious clubs and a woman testified saying how excited she was for this and that she intended to start a satanic club. The entire proposal was dropped. Hilarious.

Jane Baker's avatar

I'm happy to say I don't know. And I don't want to find out.

Elisabeth Grace Foley's avatar

As a writer and lifelong enthusiast for Westerns, I'm loving the amount of pieces examining the genre that have been showing up on Substack lately, and I was delighted to see you weigh in too!

While, I agree, generally, with the overall assessment of classic Westerns no longer fitting in with post-1960s morals, I think your point about the shift beginning even earlier hits close to what I've long thought is a vital missing piece of the discussion: how mid-century movie and TV Westerns, in particular, subtly assisted that cultural shift by serving more as vehicles for the philosophy of 20th-century writers than an effort to accurately portray the views and actions of 19th-century characters.

I actually wrote a series of posts on that topic almost ten years ago: https://secondsentence.substack.com/p/the-way-of-the-western-introduction

Jane Baker's avatar

That sounds interesting.