Here in Brazil we have this crazy guy called Lisciel Franco. He has a studio in the middle of Rio de Janeiros forest with no computers. He crafts his own compressors, equalizers and stuff. He works only with people inside the independent music scene (mostly rock, but also samba, jazz, MPB, rap and others non-mainstream genres). Now, he is creating his new streaming services together with other indie studios in Brazil, dedicated only to the independent market. The promise is a fair payment, good communication and human selection to music that enters the service (they don't care about the stuff that already exist, they want new music - but of course, there is tone of respect to what has been made in the past).
I am not advertising it, I cant say that I believe in the project, I shouldn't even tell that I fully understand it. I just felt that the information should arrive here. The studio is called Forest Lab.
Alternatives come from places we don't expect. There is always someone doing something.
Sorry about my english and thanks for the space to share Ted!
I sent this to a musician friend (hope you dont mind). The reason being that he is too overwhelmed by the current developments in AI and music and how it might make existing musicians irrelevant. Thank you for posting this.
The news that famed country singer Randy Travis released a new song using AI to create a vocal is a new frontier in AI and really needs to be talked about.
Travis, for those unaware, has been unable to sing for over a decade now due to a tragic stroke. He has released a new song using AI to replicate his vocals. Unlike most AI music, this is wholly signed off on by the artist, and is perhaps more comparable to auto tune or other vocal aids then the average AI song.
If every vocal beat is authorized by Travis, is it proper artistic expression? Probably. Is it ethical? Most likely. Is it "his" music? I'd say so. Should the marketing team have been less cagey about it? For sure. Will this fringe use case open doors permiting artists to "outsource" vocals to computers? It may.
Fringe cases like this force you to think very clearly about the issues at hand. I don't claim to have answers, but this is very serious food for thought.
Not gonna argue either way. Each to their own path.
I came here this afternoon to see if an AI posts would already be here, and to report my 5 minutes with it today:
Google has been flogging their multitude of AI-"inspired" enterprises. Big shrug from me, but when I saw their music thingy I gave it a go. What I wanted to test was how well it could produce output around a single musical concept with variations that (should) be definitively different. So my first impulse was "bluegrass in the style of Tadd Dameron". I got 30 seconds of 'bluegrass'. I then plugged in "Igor Stravinsky", "John Cage" and finally "Jimi Hendrix". That last produced a slightly faster tempo 'bluegrass'.
Well, 30 seconds maybe (that is the limit of the ai program sandbox I played in yesterday). But fair's fair – I probly coulda marked my 5 lost minutes down to 4:30 if I'd encountered the silence instead of what it spewed...
Generally speaking, as a legitimate boomer, I'm not at all excited about all of the AI business but I'm told, "it's here, accept it and embrace it". Perhaps? But I don't have to like and appreciate it. That being said, since I know it's part of nearly every aspect of life to one degree or another, there's no getting around the use in the music industry. So I'll say this: if an artist chooses to use this "tool" to somehow enhance or improve their talent and skills, so be it. All I ask, well maybe for me it's a requirement (even though I know I'm not that relevant) is at least be truthful about it. If one uses AI for anything really, don't try to pass it off as your own talents and skills. Be honest with your audience. Otherwise, you may find yourself in the unfortunate situation that you lied about its use and then you have to try to regain some credibility with an audience whose trust and confidence you so easily compromised. Just my two cents on a topic I'm unfamiliar with and am not yet supportive of.
Stevie Wonder relied heavily on Moog synthesizers, we understood on the voice manipulation effects that it was Stevie's creation, it seemed instantly credible as a genius idea for that particular song. You've probably noticed they don't sound quite spot on when Stevie performs them live, which makes then seem even more special, he has created something so unique it can be difficult to duplicate
Look at AI-designed bicycles. The exercise is its own failure. The ones I've seen are pathetic piles of putrescence that no one would choose to make nor purchase for reasons vast, including incomparably maintenance-resistant features, hundreds (!) of additional surfaces to get dirty and vastly more difficult to clean, to carry, to place company logos on (how stupid is THAT from a designer standpoint!).
I could go on but this might turn into a rant and it's past time for my ride...
I'm in my mid 20s and out and about a lot and I have at most heard 3 of the songs in the current Billboard Singles Chart. Taylor Swift currently holds the top 14(!) spots on the chart. I recently learned from several sources that at a lot of college parties are playing playlists of throwback hits from the 2000s. It seems like new popular music is at some unprecedented all-time low in relevance. I often think back to your article in the Atlantic about how such little investment is made into new music. Do you have any predictions (positive, hopefully) of what might come next? I've always thought that years of stagnant, garbage pop make the conditions right for a great disruption in the industry or new trend.
Lot of good ol' songs from yesteryear. One of my favorites is Attics of My Life by the Grateful Dead...
And Allan Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind (1987) begins this way:
There is on thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative...
The relativity of truth is not a theoretical insight but a moral postulate, the condition of a free society, or so they see it. They have all been equipped with this framework early on, and it is the modern replacement for the inalienable natural rights that used to be the traditional American grounds for a free society...
The danger they have been taught to fear from absolutism is not error but intolerance.
These two comments are related. Something out there... but we can't know.
Just one man's observation, but I've been a full-time DJ since the '80s, and my experience is that audiences want less old music now than ever before. When I DJ'ed high school and college parties in the late '80s and through most of the '90s, over half of what I played was music from the '50s, '60s, and '70s. Kids didn't want much more than a few of the current hits, and the '80s were almost entirely out. That slowly began to switch in the 2000s. Now, when I play parties, whether it's for young or old guests, I'm playing almost entirely music from today back to maybe 2015. Oldies are floor-clearers.
How are you learning about contemporary music? That’s the hard thing for me to get a sense of. It’s odd to reflect that when I was in my 20s I read the local alt-weekly to learn about shows. This information was local and featured in a single source.
Online magazines are still a great source. Despite Pitchfork’s recent acquisition it still exposes new and interesting music despite its commercial relevance or irrelevance. Crowdsourced websites like RateYourMusic.com can allow you to see what other music enthusiasts are listening to. Lots of new great music out there that doesn’t get the mainstream coverage it should
I've got a day job I actually like, and don't particularly intend to quit it. But I also enjoy creative pursuits - I make amateur films, write music, that kind of thing. But one thing that frustrates me is that it is almost impossible to get anyone else to care - because I'm not doing it professionally, I also have no marketing department, and I'm interested in the art part more than the marketing part. (That's sidestepping the issue of quality, I'll admit: my work is not as polished as an equivalent effort being made professionally would be.)
Eric, join the club. It's difficult even for professional artists to get anyone to care. It's sort of going in the direction of martial artists, who don't make money training or doing martial arts, but by teaching students.
But these martial artists still train hard, every day, perfecting their art to the highest degree they can attain in their lifetime.
Ultimately the reward for making art is making art. (I forget who said this.)
To support what you are saying, Wagner once stated that "People who will only make music if they are being paid will never make music that will amount to much."
I think that what's keeps my creative juices going the most, strictly speaking from a guitar player's viewpoint, is playing live. Having a real audience that you're interacting with and receiving their energy and engagement with the performance, rather the via a digital medium, is what I call "where it's at" for my creative jones. So engaging in performance - is about putting it in physical places where there are real live people. Anyway that's what's worked for me. But it did take a lot of hard work in my craft. But that also was enjoyable too. And I write songs that go nowhere and no one hears on any large scale. But the creation process sometimes is enough. A knowing I have a gig coming up which can be as humble as a friends party or a rowdy bar gig. I just encourage you to keep at it and try to engage with other artists and audiences in person as much as you can.
Yes, we need that community element. It's the tribal artist-as-shaman role that we still can embody even if no one recognizes it for what it really is.
That's pretty much where I'm at on music, but it's tougher with collaborative arts like film and theater. To not-care about audience response would feel like a disservice to my collaborators (which would be particularly bad since they're volunteers).
Also... if people hate my work, at least they saw it. The thing I struggle with is convincing people to actually watch the thing. And these are typically small efforts - I don't think I've ever filmed anything longer than twenty minutes, and the majority are in the 4-7 minute range, typically available for free.
If you are repetitiously convincing people to consume your art you're reaching the wrong audience. Objectively look at your work and think about who would be interested in this. What feelings does it elicit?
Start by liking your work (so what if people hate it sans constructive feedback). Get creative about where your audience might frequent. And go from there.
Several years ago I was involved with a few musicians who weren't interested in trying to break into the club scene. (Our music wasn't club music.) I said, let's put on a house concert with an open invitation to the first 20 people who responded. The could donate or not at the end of the concert. I don't know if this would work for film, if it would that will give you the feedback that you want and help you to refine your work.
Yeah,I'm with Eric. I'm working on an animated sitcom (JazzCow.co.uk) There's a lot of 'sweat equity' people have put in, and even with that, it's not a cheap undertaking. I want to pay my team fairly, so I really do care about finding the audience. Otherwise, it just won't happen. Fortunately, it resonates really well, so the main challenge is getting it out there.
There are a lot of us who are artists that don’t “just”have a day job job. Actually, we have a job so that we can do the art that we love. Unfortunately we tend to only look at “professional” artists as legitimate. In the history of the world artists were supported by benefactors (the wealthy and the church). As artists we create because that’s who we are. There are a lucky “few” that can make it their full-time vocation. But that is because of time and chance, not because of talent. It doesn’t mean they don’t have talent. It just means that’s not the reason behind their success. I once had a famous producer. I once had a famous producer. Tell me as we were walking down the beach in Malibu “the cream always rises to the top”. I was 18. I believed him then. I’m 61 and I know that that is not true now. I’m OK with it.
The polish is often the problem. What matters (to me) is intention. Often the intention is clearer and more emotionally engaging when the polish isn’t there
Note of optimism in a an increasing tide of (justifiable) pessimism: to paraphrase Dostoevsky the single most definable attribute of people is being able to endure the unendurable. Despite the desiccating of the arts from decades of defunding and corporate consolidation, independent outlets have emerged and offer true pleasure for those tired of the monoculture. While not able to dominate the discourse small publishers like Fitzcarraldo Editions and Sort of Books are publishing literary fiction and foreign translation. A24 and Neon fund and distribute non-franchise fair that not just competes with the MCU but beats it at the box office. And successful younger musicians are forming independent labels like Phoebe Bridgers’ Saddest Factory Records. The real challenge is finding it through the algorithms. It’s important to find, champion and support those who maintain the continuum of rebellion from Bach to Beethoven to Duke Ellington to Joni Mitchell and those alive now who maintain the flame. I feel like I’m a drug dealer half-the-time: “Pssss! Hey kids, tired of that corporate pablum? Wanna try some real s**t that will scandalize your parents?” and then I open my overcoat and reveal a rainbow assortment of cassettes, paperbacks and VHS tapes with names so strange that you’re not sure if you’ve just stumbled into a parallel universe.
Great comment!🤣hello fellow kids (Steve Buscemi skit comes to mind)
Kids will endure what they must endure when and only when helicopter parents stop coddling & controlling every single situation. Perhaps this is my inner country kid speaking out, but I know I’m not the only one who sees it? Culture is reflected in their generic music. Teens need to rebel and shake it up. I want to throw their smartphones in the lake, say “figure it out”, and watch their ingenious problem-solving skills come back to life. I think it may simultaneously give some purpose and an edge to life for them again. Wait, what?! I have to, gulp, take action and make mistakes? Not turn to Google or social media with every answer like its almighty God! Shake some shit up, kiddos. Piss off your parents & the system. Rebel against the culture of TikTok & Snapchat. To the ones already doing this…I tip my hat🙌👏Groupthink and peer pressure with this stuff is insane.
I was at a party and talking to a middle school teacher. He said to me “I wish they would be more rebellious” which I found hilarious. It was also on St. Patrick’s Day so in honor of the late Shane MacGowan we proceeded to sing (badly) Pogue songs. We could not get some kids there to stop playing video games to join us. Though of course all kids find adults embarrassing.
Kate, I’m right there with you. Must be something about growing up in the country. Now that I’ve got kids I stand back and tell them to “figure it out”, but they’re certainly in the minority among their friends.
Spent the entire day outside exploring sometimes. It’s really difficult for me to witness a passive suburban life, but my daughter has taught me a lot about compromise and balance. The kids will be alright! 😊
Agreed ...and I might say that it's always been this way. Were it not for entrepreneurs like John Hammond, George Wein, Norman Granz et al, who truly loved and believed in the art of jazz, today we would have far less appreciation of the art form. It's always the individuals who step up to the plate that make a difference.
I’ve often thought of how different someone like John Hammond was from the C-suite executives that replaced him. There are lot of things you can criticize Hammond for but he was genuinely part of the NYC jazz and folk revival scene. The fact that Alan Lomax was a friend (if a tense one) shows you how cultural production is not the same as a running a factory. I can’t imagine anyone at Spotify putting together a show comparable to Hammond’s “From Spiritual to Swing” concert at Carnegie Hall.
There are things comparable to this being done now. Just not through the major labels or platforms. Alex Ross and Joseph Horowitz have written about The South Dakota Symphony. It has been doing really ambiguous programming around American music and its history. Live streams are available too. It’s building the audience that’s a challenge
Wow, I had a lovely chat with their conductor, a great guy. So much if this thread is people struggling with building audiences for worthwhile things in an age of distraction (my struggle too)
I guess this Substack is really popular with a certain demographic. The profiles I read portrayed SDS as really embedded in the area and a rejection of the star-conductor model with that person jet-setting a la Tar across the globe for multiple posts. That to do ambitious programming the conductor has to be there. The challenge or harsh reality of the pivot online is that requires all entities or individuals to run a media company. Not an easy thing to do especially alone.
I’m really curious about what you’re reading, watching and listening to. What excites and obsesses you? There’s a lot of great work being done. It’s just so hard learning about despite the ease of internet access.
I have very specific tastes, and am sorry to admit I'm not into jazz (sorry, all). In the world of classical music I made the discovery of the great young pianist Gabriele Strata, whose recital I recently reviewed on my Substack. I like Melody Gardot. Though jazz is not my thing, I can tell Samara Joy is immensely talented. In pursuit of talented ballet dancers to watch, I landed on Joy Womack, who currently isn't a prima ballerina in any company but is the best I've seen in the past 10 years.
The book cover designer with whom I collaborate - Eloise G. Morgan - is a highly talented painter. I don't really know anything about that art, but I can tell she's incredibly gifted. The newest film I loved was Wim Wenders' "Perfect Days", which was shown only in 85 movie theaters in the UK (talk about minimal promotion and exposure). I have very specific literary tastes, but Jeffrey Eugenides is pretty talented in my view (he's already very well established, though).
If I think if more, I'll let you know!
Would love to hear what you're imbibing too, Steven.
I loved “Perfect Days.” We streamed it on the Criterion Channel. It’s a movie with very little dialogue, about the relationships between people and the worlds they’ve chosen to inhabit. A very Buddhist film.
By the way, I see that you're a drummer! If you'd care to join my newly founded community for aesthetics-prioritising and experimental artists, The Artistic Minority Underground - feel free to send me a message through https://www.thecrepuscularpress.com/the-amu
Ignorant person that I am, I didn't even make the Buddhist parallel, but that makes perfect sense! It was impossibly exquisitely shot. That alone should have got it more media attention, but aesthetic prowess seems to rank low in the movie industry these days. I am a huge Wenders fan. I strongly recommend the full-length, 5-hour version of "Until the End of the World", from 1991. It ironically predicted the addiction to narcissistic digital media decades before its peak. It's beautifully filmed: I was utterly arrested by it.
Perfect Days was stunning. I left the theater wanting to incorporate the protagonist’s mindset more into my own life.
I’ve been reading the entire output of Rachel Kushner recently. Her newest novel The Mars Room perfectly captures contemporary California through its prison system. Her novel The Flamethrowers is the work though I recommend to people. It includes motorcycle races, feminism, the New York art world, radical politics in Italy. It is an exhilarating read!
Last year I listened to composer John Luther Adam’s Become trilogy (become river, become desert, become ocean) nonstop. Jazz pianist Brad Mehldau’s cover of Beatles songs has been on repeat for me also. I’ve also become intrigued by the enigmatic Japanese singer Ichiko Aoba. The band Chinese Football has gotten me interested in what is happening in China.
I felt exactly the same way about Perfect Days, and so did a budding filmmaker with whom I discussed it.
Thanks for turning me on to Rachel Kushner - I will look up her writing.
I'd heard of John Luther Adams but not heard him - or at least not knowingly so; I will have a listen of his Become trilogy - thanks also for the heads-up! And I had no idea there were jazz versions of Beatles songs.
Thank you for all of these recommendations! I will say again that Gabriele Strata, who's still a pretty young pianist, is awesome. You can find his YouTube channel if you'd like to hear him playing Chopin or Rachmaninov.
I spend far more time reading, writing and growing food than I do making music or even working at my music business, which in itself takes up far more time than playing. And yet 'musician' is the role I have defined myself as since leaving school at 15 to become a full time metro singer in Paris. There was a period in the 1980s when I thought acoustic guitar had gone out of fashion for good, that seems silly now, but it is what it was.
You won't find my music given away on spotify, but then I don't buy lottery tickets either.
That's all I wanted to say on this Open Mic Day, which I don't really understand yet.
Sounds like a life well-lived to me. Back in the '80s and early '90s this was the way many of us lived in Australia. Inner city rents were cheap if you were prepared to live in a run down place and do a bit of painting yourself to cheer the place up. Living was cheap so you had time to explore your creativity. I feel sad for today's youth. There is no leeway for them to "just be". They have to accrue massive student debt for jobs they don't want and don't like while trapped in their parents' homes because they can't afford to rent a shoebox.
I never thought I'd ever say this, as I participated in the first officially recognized referendum to legalize marijuana back in 1967 at a Haight-Ashbury Business Association meeting (The vote to legalize marijuana passed overwhelmingly.). However, the potency of today's cannabis product is such that it is no longer my father's weed. I'm wondering if we aren't providing adequate guard rails in researching the effects of the higher THC potency in what is available today.
Smoke a smaller amount. If you used to smoke a joint to get high and a few hits gets you high now, don't smoke the whole joint, it's a waste of weed and money.
When asked if I used drugs, I'd say, "I don't use drugs. I AM drugs!" My motto was 'I'll try anything twice." With aging comes wisdom, and I've now gotten to the point where I can say that I've been straight for, literally, hours.
Congratulations on your new insight and wisdom that comes with age. These days I need a reason to get high; play music, read something that requires insight, eating, sleeping, replying to people, writing poems, thinking, staring out the window.
Good luck with your work/life balance. I recall seeing a cartoon of the brain being divided up into four parts, Sleep, Food, Sex, and B.S. We need to take care of all of them according to our needs. Here's hoping there's something good to look at when you stare out the window.
There are people who are alergic to other types of protein powder, or due to illness cannot consume other types of protein powder. You mix it with the liquid of your choice. 3 tbls. gives you about 14 gr. of protein. I mix it with rice milk in a blender and add various fruits for a total of 17 grms of protein. For me, that's half of my daily protein allowance.
Am reading two books at the moment, Nabokov's SPEAK MEMORY (for the 4th time) and Louise Gluck's POEMS 1962-2020. Both I can highly recommend. Especially if you are a writer, and/or a reader who responds to precision of diction etc.
When my mother was dying of breast cancer som 15 years ago, I gave her SPEAK MEMORY. She told me after reading it over three days that she'd never read anything so beautiful. Give it a try!
For those curious one of the inspirations for Speak Memory was Delmore Schwartz’s short but beautiful piece “In Dreams Begin Responsibility”, an autobiographical piece about his parent’s marriage told through the narrator watching a film. He cited the phrase “the fatal merciless passionate ocean” as perfect.
I first encountered you when Rick Beato interviewed you and I am glad I did. His brilliance in music is matched by your brilliance in, well, as near as I can tell, everything.
I have been listening to "The Train and The River" by the Jimmy Giuffre trio from the 1958 Newport Jazz Festival film. What can I say - a valve trombone, tenor sax and guitar never sounded bigger than that recording.
I grew up listening to jazz on the Felix Grant show on WMAL radio. What a blessing that was.
But by 1972 I started listening to classical music almost exclusively. Sometimes one can hear music that goes back nearly 1000 years, but your writing about older forms has made me curious - have any of the real oldies ever been recorded?
One more thing - Rick Beato posted a vid about the Spotify top 10 and for the first time in my life I heard a Taylor Swift recording (two, actually, but who's counting?). What incredibly vapid gruel that was. As Rick snarked "Go buy another jet". Well, that was after "You are depressed and singing in C major? Why not D minor?"
Reminds me also that when I was a kid (early 60s), my mom drove us to school and would sing along with the radio, which was always tuned to “awful” easy listening stations. But imagine my surprise when I started getting into jazz in college and knew all the tunes! Polka Dots and Moonbeams?? Autumn Leaves?? Springtime in Paris?? Those and a million other tunes were my mom’s inadvertent gift to me.
But also classical music. One of my first classical LPs was Stravinsky’s Firebird and Petroushka Suites with L. Stokowski. (Which I still have.) I had no idea about the composer, just loved the music and listened to it all the time - at 6-7. A lot later in college, these two pieces were on the roster of works we heard in Music Lit 101. I remember bursting into tears because of the intense feelings from my childhood they evoked.
The UK comedy Peep Show has been off the air for almost 10 years and is maybe the best piece of comic writing ever? I started my third complete rewatch a few weeks ago and while there are episodes I like more than others, there’s not a single skip.
As I'm sure you know it was co-written and co-created by Jesse Armstrong (Succession). What I've always enjoyed is that whilst the two main characters are fantastic, most if not all of the other recurring characters would be interesting and funny enough to be main characters themselves. It's just all round brilliant.
I'll soon be 70, discovered I liked writing lyrics back in 06'. Time went on by, and I never hooked up with a band. When I stumbled onto Suno, I couldn't believe it. My wife, Laurie, of 46 years had just been diagnosed with a rare blood cancer, so I worked over a couple of months producing songs, so that she could finally hear what she had seen me writing over all these years. I use my lyrics in all of my songs, and they're not bad. Laurie loves hearing them! I have the utmost regard for those that can play and perform, and I hope they are unaffected by Ai, and can perhaps somehow utilize it.
Why do 99% of music critics focused on jazz and jazz adjacent areas have no appreciation for swing-based music? They also all seem deaf to chord progressions and typically seem to address only issues of tone color/general vibe without being able to really dig into the meat of the music. It feels like this is an issue of folks growing up in the "rock" ethos, a perfectly great genre where chord progressions are simple and knowledge of music & chord changes is minimally required to appreciate it. Was this situation ever different or have most critics always been a bit tone deaf?
I wonder if this comes down to audience expectations. The majority of music listeners don't really engage much with what the music is doing harmonically or rhythmically (I was surprised recently when I commented on Mary Magdalene's bits in Jesus Christ Superstar being in 5/4 and one of my fellow viewers was like "how can you tell?")
And for that matter, lots of listeners think of genre as being primarily what instruments are used: if it's got brass, it's "jazz", if it's got guitars it's "rock", if it's got a string orchestra it's "classical", by their heuristic.
Given that basic landscape, I would imagine that most publications that do reviews are striving for an editorial voice that doesn't alienate readers. So even if the reviewers are well-versed in music theory (and practiced at being able to hear elements of theory when they listen), I'd guess that their editors may be hesitant to let them go too far in that direction.
(I don't *like* that this is the case, to be clear. I think it's quite unfortunate.)
After listening to and playing "swing based music" for 70 yrs. it has become old and all starts to sound the same. Maybe others feel that way too and that's why they aren't interested in "swing based" music. There will never be another new phrase played in "swing based" music, it's all been played over and over and over again.
I can't help it though - I have always had a very good & strong feel for swing. Since a very young age. Could have been growing up hearing my Dad play his Slingerland drums in various Jazz combos when very young.
One of the best compliments I ever received was when I was playing a regular gig in a Country bar long long ago. (Country / Country Rock was a good way to work regularly, even though I have always been a Jazz/Fusion guy). We were playing Bad Moon Rising & some Redneck dances by with his girl & tries to insult me by saying : "We don't wanna hear any of that Jazz Shit in here". I said "Thank you very much Sir" & kept on doing whatever it was I did. Had no idea I was doing it. I guess my inherent swing came through whatever I played. I still remember this lesson (for good or bad) so many years later.
1981 I was playing in a country rock band in Santa Barbara, Ca. One night during a guitar solo, he slipped in Sonny Rollins, Sonnymoon For Two and after I heard the first two notes, I played the whole phrase with him. The other two guys were stunned and afterward asked, "How did you do that?" I told them I knew the tune, they asked, "What tune," and I told them. The guitarist said that he'd bought Sonny's album that afternoon. I know that feeling of whatever other music I'm playing I can't disguise my Jazz feel. Easier to get away with in Blues and Reggae bands.
I've got a question for anyone with media marketing experience. It seems like with few exceptions, most of the artists featured on mainstream pop radio today have a well-funded payola marketing team behind them. They don't even have a fanbase (at first), and seem to just appear out of nowhere.
A pretty decent recent example of this is the pop singer Sabrina Carpenter. She's from a long tradition of Disney-channel child actor turned pop singer. I'm curious if anyone knows how much money it takes these days to make a highly visible star "out of thin air" in the span of a couple months? Here is my complete wild guess breakdown:
- Actually recording an album with top musicians, songwriters, mixers: $500k
- Front page of Spotify, forced onto curated and generated autoplay lists: $300k
- Make sure you get a spot on lots of popular talk shows (morning shows, late night, etc.) $2 million
- Social media management, daily Instagram posts, video edits for TikTok, click farms, etc. $300k
- Music video production: $1 million
- Total: $7 million?
Honestly I have absolutely no idea what the numbers really are. I could be off by an order of magnitude perhaps on some of these. Someone has to know though.
There really needs to be one, but God knows what company would air a series - or even published feature - about it considering everyone's indentured to Meta, TikTok and X.
Ideally, I think such a thing would have to be done by a journalism outlet. Unfortunately I suspect that most of those are operating under exactly the constraints you alluded to.
There’s a definite marketing team. I’m in LA so while I don’t have concrete numbers I’ve been at parties with social media marketers or know musicians who have to engage with it. There has emerged this whole apparatus of white-collar professionals that connect the artists to the big platforms. No one actually knows what’s going on in the algorithms so marketers relay between their inside contacts and the artists for a huge fee. While no musician I’ve ever met likes it, at this point most of their time is focused on marketing questions rather than artistic ones. For instance it’s increasingly difficult to get a meeting/audition if you don’t have a certain social media following. I was once a plus one to an event where there was a teen Disney star with a whole team around. She was handed different phones throughout and was being instructed on when to post and etc. I honestly found it sad. All of these vampires around this teenager. They’ve always been there but it’s gotten a lot worse from my pov.
Maybe someone else has the figures for you but I highly doubt that's disclosable information on such a thread. Power and Money are two sides of the same hard-earned coin.
I think you're right. A lot of this is kept pretty secret. Would love to know though! It must be sufficiently high such that a rich person with a hobby wouldn't be able to swing it. So not $1 million. More like $10+ million.
I agree. However, I feel like you're placing money alone where creativity (… hard work, building connections) can be. Sometimes the door might not even be locked—you just need to turn the handle.
I think your numbers are based a bit on outdated methods now with the ability by almost anyone to record & produce a good album in basically their bedroom if they so desire. Also the ability to produce good visuals/video/etc from very cheaply & widely available equipment these days. The initial efforts anyway.
Where you would run in to the larger bucks would probably still be the Promo area. Still takes lots of work & sometimes big Payola / influence/etc
I'm amazed at the difficulty of finding a single person who can help me market my self-produced 400 page (with 2 CDs) book. I've struggled with Shopify, even with able assistance, and still have not solved the international shipping problems! Surely I'm not the first person who is using a (very able) fulfillment house to self-market my book "Electronic Perspectives: Vintage Electronic Musical Instruments." View and hear (and buy!) at: electronicperspectives.com
Anybody out there who has previously trod this path? I could use some sound advice . . .
Fellow self-published author here. I use Amazon KDP; have never touched Shopify. As for marketing, it's an eternal struggle. While one would be reluctant, Meta ads are a necessity. They are cheaper compared to ads on any other social media platform, let alone online publication. I've never even been on social media, but sadly it's a sine qua non. Thankfully I have a manager to do most of it for me.
Also, if you'd care to join an online group for some mutual support, feel free to touch base and join my new clan, The Artistic Minority Underground: A mutual support hub for experimenters, counterculturists and aesthetes.
Thank you - read your comment & checked out your site. What a Fine fine looking book ! As a musician from Wayyyyy back, I will certainly consider purchasing it.
Are you by any chance on the synth-diy mailing list? I don't recall if they have rules against people posting marketing materials, but I'd guess it's an audience who'd be very interested.
Yes, Amazon does require a cut. That cut varies according to the price of your book for eBook sales: you can choose to have a 35% or a 70% royalty after $2.99, but if it's anything lower you must have a 35% one. As for the physical formats, I don't remember precisely what it is, but it's pretty high. The good thing is that you can alter your price at any time. If you already have a fulfilment house, I would suggest targeting your advertising budget to Meta and maybe Google Ads. The KDP contract is not exclusive, so should you wish to use both Amazon and your fulfilment house, you can go that route - but you'll have to reformat your paperback (and hardback) to match Amazon's sizes.
" . . .but you'll have to reformat your paperback (and hardback) to match Amazon's sizes."
You see, that is precisely my problem with Amazon. How would I " . . . reformat . . . " a book that weighs 8 pounds (best paper quality possible), and has a slipcase with gold embossing? Reckon I'll have to lump along with my word of mouth approach, so again:
"Electronic Perspectives: Vintage Electronic Musical Instruments" is at electronicperspectives.com for everybody who has zero interest in allowing somebody else to dictate the terms of your dream! Genuinely, thanks. Best, Tom Rhea.
Wow, this is an honour! I feel like a broken record here, as I just sent Ted a message about this community, but I can't forego the opportunity to share news of it here.
I am a millennial author and arts critic who is working to found a community of artists dedicated to the creation of beauty. It is intended to be a mutual support hub for all the hardworking, devoted performers and storytellers out there: today's "artistic minority" in a corporate-controlled, mind-numbing realm. It's my belief - like Ted's - that many gifted singers, composers, writers and other artists aren't getting their due. It's high time for all of us to unite.
The clan will be called The AMU: The Artistic Minority Underground. It'll be a place for counterculturists, experimenters and aesthetes. If you'd care to join us for online meet-ups (maybe in person too, but I'm in London, and it'll depend on everyone's geographical location) - look us up at https://www.thecrepuscularpress.com/the-amu and drop me a message.
Here in Brazil we have this crazy guy called Lisciel Franco. He has a studio in the middle of Rio de Janeiros forest with no computers. He crafts his own compressors, equalizers and stuff. He works only with people inside the independent music scene (mostly rock, but also samba, jazz, MPB, rap and others non-mainstream genres). Now, he is creating his new streaming services together with other indie studios in Brazil, dedicated only to the independent market. The promise is a fair payment, good communication and human selection to music that enters the service (they don't care about the stuff that already exist, they want new music - but of course, there is tone of respect to what has been made in the past).
I am not advertising it, I cant say that I believe in the project, I shouldn't even tell that I fully understand it. I just felt that the information should arrive here. The studio is called Forest Lab.
Alternatives come from places we don't expect. There is always someone doing something.
Sorry about my english and thanks for the space to share Ted!
Thanks for this, going to research him. Sounds like a nouveau Hermeto!
I sent this to a musician friend (hope you dont mind). The reason being that he is too overwhelmed by the current developments in AI and music and how it might make existing musicians irrelevant. Thank you for posting this.
Thanks for the info! I’m intrigued
The news that famed country singer Randy Travis released a new song using AI to create a vocal is a new frontier in AI and really needs to be talked about.
Travis, for those unaware, has been unable to sing for over a decade now due to a tragic stroke. He has released a new song using AI to replicate his vocals. Unlike most AI music, this is wholly signed off on by the artist, and is perhaps more comparable to auto tune or other vocal aids then the average AI song.
If every vocal beat is authorized by Travis, is it proper artistic expression? Probably. Is it ethical? Most likely. Is it "his" music? I'd say so. Should the marketing team have been less cagey about it? For sure. Will this fringe use case open doors permiting artists to "outsource" vocals to computers? It may.
Fringe cases like this force you to think very clearly about the issues at hand. I don't claim to have answers, but this is very serious food for thought.
The song- https://youtu.be/rh8-g8seeig?feature=shared
A dilemma in ethics to be sure, because others will do (or are doing) the same, without the same legitimate justification RT has.
Not gonna argue either way. Each to their own path.
I came here this afternoon to see if an AI posts would already be here, and to report my 5 minutes with it today:
Google has been flogging their multitude of AI-"inspired" enterprises. Big shrug from me, but when I saw their music thingy I gave it a go. What I wanted to test was how well it could produce output around a single musical concept with variations that (should) be definitively different. So my first impulse was "bluegrass in the style of Tadd Dameron". I got 30 seconds of 'bluegrass'. I then plugged in "Igor Stravinsky", "John Cage" and finally "Jimi Hendrix". That last produced a slightly faster tempo 'bluegrass'.
5 minutes lost forever.
The Cage should have produced 4:33 of silence.
Well, 30 seconds maybe (that is the limit of the ai program sandbox I played in yesterday). But fair's fair – I probly coulda marked my 5 lost minutes down to 4:30 if I'd encountered the silence instead of what it spewed...
Generally speaking, as a legitimate boomer, I'm not at all excited about all of the AI business but I'm told, "it's here, accept it and embrace it". Perhaps? But I don't have to like and appreciate it. That being said, since I know it's part of nearly every aspect of life to one degree or another, there's no getting around the use in the music industry. So I'll say this: if an artist chooses to use this "tool" to somehow enhance or improve their talent and skills, so be it. All I ask, well maybe for me it's a requirement (even though I know I'm not that relevant) is at least be truthful about it. If one uses AI for anything really, don't try to pass it off as your own talents and skills. Be honest with your audience. Otherwise, you may find yourself in the unfortunate situation that you lied about its use and then you have to try to regain some credibility with an audience whose trust and confidence you so easily compromised. Just my two cents on a topic I'm unfamiliar with and am not yet supportive of.
Stevie Wonder relied heavily on Moog synthesizers, we understood on the voice manipulation effects that it was Stevie's creation, it seemed instantly credible as a genius idea for that particular song. You've probably noticed they don't sound quite spot on when Stevie performs them live, which makes then seem even more special, he has created something so unique it can be difficult to duplicate
Look at AI-designed bicycles. The exercise is its own failure. The ones I've seen are pathetic piles of putrescence that no one would choose to make nor purchase for reasons vast, including incomparably maintenance-resistant features, hundreds (!) of additional surfaces to get dirty and vastly more difficult to clean, to carry, to place company logos on (how stupid is THAT from a designer standpoint!).
I could go on but this might turn into a rant and it's past time for my ride...
Wow, I hadn’t heard about this. A really interesting situation.
I'm in my mid 20s and out and about a lot and I have at most heard 3 of the songs in the current Billboard Singles Chart. Taylor Swift currently holds the top 14(!) spots on the chart. I recently learned from several sources that at a lot of college parties are playing playlists of throwback hits from the 2000s. It seems like new popular music is at some unprecedented all-time low in relevance. I often think back to your article in the Atlantic about how such little investment is made into new music. Do you have any predictions (positive, hopefully) of what might come next? I've always thought that years of stagnant, garbage pop make the conditions right for a great disruption in the industry or new trend.
Punk rock is needed in all its forms right now. Something to burn through the culture and all it’s nonsense imo.
Only weaponized autism can burn through culture in a lasting fashion.
i would absolutely listen to a punk rock band named "weaponized autism"
Certainly the DIY attitude.
Lot of good ol' songs from yesteryear. One of my favorites is Attics of My Life by the Grateful Dead...
And Allan Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind (1987) begins this way:
There is on thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative...
The relativity of truth is not a theoretical insight but a moral postulate, the condition of a free society, or so they see it. They have all been equipped with this framework early on, and it is the modern replacement for the inalienable natural rights that used to be the traditional American grounds for a free society...
The danger they have been taught to fear from absolutism is not error but intolerance.
These two comments are related. Something out there... but we can't know.
I find it so easy to ignore the Charts, with an infinity of independent music on Soundcloud, Bandcamp, et cet!
Sir: are you suggesting that TayTay produces "garbage pop"? 😲
Just one man's observation, but I've been a full-time DJ since the '80s, and my experience is that audiences want less old music now than ever before. When I DJ'ed high school and college parties in the late '80s and through most of the '90s, over half of what I played was music from the '50s, '60s, and '70s. Kids didn't want much more than a few of the current hits, and the '80s were almost entirely out. That slowly began to switch in the 2000s. Now, when I play parties, whether it's for young or old guests, I'm playing almost entirely music from today back to maybe 2015. Oldies are floor-clearers.
How are you learning about contemporary music? That’s the hard thing for me to get a sense of. It’s odd to reflect that when I was in my 20s I read the local alt-weekly to learn about shows. This information was local and featured in a single source.
Online magazines are still a great source. Despite Pitchfork’s recent acquisition it still exposes new and interesting music despite its commercial relevance or irrelevance. Crowdsourced websites like RateYourMusic.com can allow you to see what other music enthusiasts are listening to. Lots of new great music out there that doesn’t get the mainstream coverage it should
I've got a day job I actually like, and don't particularly intend to quit it. But I also enjoy creative pursuits - I make amateur films, write music, that kind of thing. But one thing that frustrates me is that it is almost impossible to get anyone else to care - because I'm not doing it professionally, I also have no marketing department, and I'm interested in the art part more than the marketing part. (That's sidestepping the issue of quality, I'll admit: my work is not as polished as an equivalent effort being made professionally would be.)
Eric, join the club. It's difficult even for professional artists to get anyone to care. It's sort of going in the direction of martial artists, who don't make money training or doing martial arts, but by teaching students.
But these martial artists still train hard, every day, perfecting their art to the highest degree they can attain in their lifetime.
Ultimately the reward for making art is making art. (I forget who said this.)
To support what you are saying, Wagner once stated that "People who will only make music if they are being paid will never make music that will amount to much."
I wonder what would happen if the same philosophy were applied to doctors...lawyers...
I think in any profession, if the only motivation is money, they won't do a good job. The problem is in arts there is a smaller margin.
You said it, Su!
I think that what's keeps my creative juices going the most, strictly speaking from a guitar player's viewpoint, is playing live. Having a real audience that you're interacting with and receiving their energy and engagement with the performance, rather the via a digital medium, is what I call "where it's at" for my creative jones. So engaging in performance - is about putting it in physical places where there are real live people. Anyway that's what's worked for me. But it did take a lot of hard work in my craft. But that also was enjoyable too. And I write songs that go nowhere and no one hears on any large scale. But the creation process sometimes is enough. A knowing I have a gig coming up which can be as humble as a friends party or a rowdy bar gig. I just encourage you to keep at it and try to engage with other artists and audiences in person as much as you can.
Yes, we need that community element. It's the tribal artist-as-shaman role that we still can embody even if no one recognizes it for what it really is.
Excellent analogy. Chess is up there too.
Two traps you need to avoid:
1. Caring what they think
2. Thinking that they care.
That's pretty much where I'm at on music, but it's tougher with collaborative arts like film and theater. To not-care about audience response would feel like a disservice to my collaborators (which would be particularly bad since they're volunteers).
Also... if people hate my work, at least they saw it. The thing I struggle with is convincing people to actually watch the thing. And these are typically small efforts - I don't think I've ever filmed anything longer than twenty minutes, and the majority are in the 4-7 minute range, typically available for free.
If you are repetitiously convincing people to consume your art you're reaching the wrong audience. Objectively look at your work and think about who would be interested in this. What feelings does it elicit?
Start by liking your work (so what if people hate it sans constructive feedback). Get creative about where your audience might frequent. And go from there.
Several years ago I was involved with a few musicians who weren't interested in trying to break into the club scene. (Our music wasn't club music.) I said, let's put on a house concert with an open invitation to the first 20 people who responded. The could donate or not at the end of the concert. I don't know if this would work for film, if it would that will give you the feedback that you want and help you to refine your work.
Yeah,I'm with Eric. I'm working on an animated sitcom (JazzCow.co.uk) There's a lot of 'sweat equity' people have put in, and even with that, it's not a cheap undertaking. I want to pay my team fairly, so I really do care about finding the audience. Otherwise, it just won't happen. Fortunately, it resonates really well, so the main challenge is getting it out there.
Authoring isn't my thing but I thought that this was an interesting idea - substack taking over.
https://open.substack.com/pub/ellegriffin/p/substack-is-the-future-of-books?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1g2uan
There are a lot of us who are artists that don’t “just”have a day job job. Actually, we have a job so that we can do the art that we love. Unfortunately we tend to only look at “professional” artists as legitimate. In the history of the world artists were supported by benefactors (the wealthy and the church). As artists we create because that’s who we are. There are a lucky “few” that can make it their full-time vocation. But that is because of time and chance, not because of talent. It doesn’t mean they don’t have talent. It just means that’s not the reason behind their success. I once had a famous producer. I once had a famous producer. Tell me as we were walking down the beach in Malibu “the cream always rises to the top”. I was 18. I believed him then. I’m 61 and I know that that is not true now. I’m OK with it.
The polish is often the problem. What matters (to me) is intention. Often the intention is clearer and more emotionally engaging when the polish isn’t there
Note of optimism in a an increasing tide of (justifiable) pessimism: to paraphrase Dostoevsky the single most definable attribute of people is being able to endure the unendurable. Despite the desiccating of the arts from decades of defunding and corporate consolidation, independent outlets have emerged and offer true pleasure for those tired of the monoculture. While not able to dominate the discourse small publishers like Fitzcarraldo Editions and Sort of Books are publishing literary fiction and foreign translation. A24 and Neon fund and distribute non-franchise fair that not just competes with the MCU but beats it at the box office. And successful younger musicians are forming independent labels like Phoebe Bridgers’ Saddest Factory Records. The real challenge is finding it through the algorithms. It’s important to find, champion and support those who maintain the continuum of rebellion from Bach to Beethoven to Duke Ellington to Joni Mitchell and those alive now who maintain the flame. I feel like I’m a drug dealer half-the-time: “Pssss! Hey kids, tired of that corporate pablum? Wanna try some real s**t that will scandalize your parents?” and then I open my overcoat and reveal a rainbow assortment of cassettes, paperbacks and VHS tapes with names so strange that you’re not sure if you’ve just stumbled into a parallel universe.
Great comment!🤣hello fellow kids (Steve Buscemi skit comes to mind)
Kids will endure what they must endure when and only when helicopter parents stop coddling & controlling every single situation. Perhaps this is my inner country kid speaking out, but I know I’m not the only one who sees it? Culture is reflected in their generic music. Teens need to rebel and shake it up. I want to throw their smartphones in the lake, say “figure it out”, and watch their ingenious problem-solving skills come back to life. I think it may simultaneously give some purpose and an edge to life for them again. Wait, what?! I have to, gulp, take action and make mistakes? Not turn to Google or social media with every answer like its almighty God! Shake some shit up, kiddos. Piss off your parents & the system. Rebel against the culture of TikTok & Snapchat. To the ones already doing this…I tip my hat🙌👏Groupthink and peer pressure with this stuff is insane.
I was at a party and talking to a middle school teacher. He said to me “I wish they would be more rebellious” which I found hilarious. It was also on St. Patrick’s Day so in honor of the late Shane MacGowan we proceeded to sing (badly) Pogue songs. We could not get some kids there to stop playing video games to join us. Though of course all kids find adults embarrassing.
I spoke to a parent who was worried that his teenage daughter is just saying in doing her homework and not rebelling.
“You know what, dad, Coltrane is overrated.”
“What did you say? Don’t you dare malign St. Trane.”
“And would you stop playing Bebop all night. I need to work on my Goldman Sachs internship application.”
“I’m just so disappointed in you.”
Love it!!
Kate, I’m right there with you. Must be something about growing up in the country. Now that I’ve got kids I stand back and tell them to “figure it out”, but they’re certainly in the minority among their friends.
Spent the entire day outside exploring sometimes. It’s really difficult for me to witness a passive suburban life, but my daughter has taught me a lot about compromise and balance. The kids will be alright! 😊
I mentioned to a friend's kid that I used to climb trees and she was *horrified*; "You could have died!"
Agreed ...and I might say that it's always been this way. Were it not for entrepreneurs like John Hammond, George Wein, Norman Granz et al, who truly loved and believed in the art of jazz, today we would have far less appreciation of the art form. It's always the individuals who step up to the plate that make a difference.
Change comes from borderlands, the places where different cultures and languages collide and mix.
I’ve often thought of how different someone like John Hammond was from the C-suite executives that replaced him. There are lot of things you can criticize Hammond for but he was genuinely part of the NYC jazz and folk revival scene. The fact that Alan Lomax was a friend (if a tense one) shows you how cultural production is not the same as a running a factory. I can’t imagine anyone at Spotify putting together a show comparable to Hammond’s “From Spiritual to Swing” concert at Carnegie Hall.
Jon Hendricks: "Evolution of the Blues".
There are things comparable to this being done now. Just not through the major labels or platforms. Alex Ross and Joseph Horowitz have written about The South Dakota Symphony. It has been doing really ambiguous programming around American music and its history. Live streams are available too. It’s building the audience that’s a challenge
Wow, I had a lovely chat with their conductor, a great guy. So much if this thread is people struggling with building audiences for worthwhile things in an age of distraction (my struggle too)
I guess this Substack is really popular with a certain demographic. The profiles I read portrayed SDS as really embedded in the area and a rejection of the star-conductor model with that person jet-setting a la Tar across the globe for multiple posts. That to do ambitious programming the conductor has to be there. The challenge or harsh reality of the pivot online is that requires all entities or individuals to run a media company. Not an easy thing to do especially alone.
As an independent writer I feel exactly the same way!
I’m really curious about what you’re reading, watching and listening to. What excites and obsesses you? There’s a lot of great work being done. It’s just so hard learning about despite the ease of internet access.
I have very specific tastes, and am sorry to admit I'm not into jazz (sorry, all). In the world of classical music I made the discovery of the great young pianist Gabriele Strata, whose recital I recently reviewed on my Substack. I like Melody Gardot. Though jazz is not my thing, I can tell Samara Joy is immensely talented. In pursuit of talented ballet dancers to watch, I landed on Joy Womack, who currently isn't a prima ballerina in any company but is the best I've seen in the past 10 years.
The book cover designer with whom I collaborate - Eloise G. Morgan - is a highly talented painter. I don't really know anything about that art, but I can tell she's incredibly gifted. The newest film I loved was Wim Wenders' "Perfect Days", which was shown only in 85 movie theaters in the UK (talk about minimal promotion and exposure). I have very specific literary tastes, but Jeffrey Eugenides is pretty talented in my view (he's already very well established, though).
If I think if more, I'll let you know!
Would love to hear what you're imbibing too, Steven.
I loved “Perfect Days.” We streamed it on the Criterion Channel. It’s a movie with very little dialogue, about the relationships between people and the worlds they’ve chosen to inhabit. A very Buddhist film.
By the way, I see that you're a drummer! If you'd care to join my newly founded community for aesthetics-prioritising and experimental artists, The Artistic Minority Underground - feel free to send me a message through https://www.thecrepuscularpress.com/the-amu
Have a great weekend, Gordon.
Sophia
Ignorant person that I am, I didn't even make the Buddhist parallel, but that makes perfect sense! It was impossibly exquisitely shot. That alone should have got it more media attention, but aesthetic prowess seems to rank low in the movie industry these days. I am a huge Wenders fan. I strongly recommend the full-length, 5-hour version of "Until the End of the World", from 1991. It ironically predicted the addiction to narcissistic digital media decades before its peak. It's beautifully filmed: I was utterly arrested by it.
Perfect Days was stunning. I left the theater wanting to incorporate the protagonist’s mindset more into my own life.
I’ve been reading the entire output of Rachel Kushner recently. Her newest novel The Mars Room perfectly captures contemporary California through its prison system. Her novel The Flamethrowers is the work though I recommend to people. It includes motorcycle races, feminism, the New York art world, radical politics in Italy. It is an exhilarating read!
Last year I listened to composer John Luther Adam’s Become trilogy (become river, become desert, become ocean) nonstop. Jazz pianist Brad Mehldau’s cover of Beatles songs has been on repeat for me also. I’ve also become intrigued by the enigmatic Japanese singer Ichiko Aoba. The band Chinese Football has gotten me interested in what is happening in China.
There’s so much going on worth celebrating!
I felt exactly the same way about Perfect Days, and so did a budding filmmaker with whom I discussed it.
Thanks for turning me on to Rachel Kushner - I will look up her writing.
I'd heard of John Luther Adams but not heard him - or at least not knowingly so; I will have a listen of his Become trilogy - thanks also for the heads-up! And I had no idea there were jazz versions of Beatles songs.
Thank you for all of these recommendations! I will say again that Gabriele Strata, who's still a pretty young pianist, is awesome. You can find his YouTube channel if you'd like to hear him playing Chopin or Rachmaninov.
Take care, Steven.
Sophia
I don't have a day job.
I spend far more time reading, writing and growing food than I do making music or even working at my music business, which in itself takes up far more time than playing. And yet 'musician' is the role I have defined myself as since leaving school at 15 to become a full time metro singer in Paris. There was a period in the 1980s when I thought acoustic guitar had gone out of fashion for good, that seems silly now, but it is what it was.
You won't find my music given away on spotify, but then I don't buy lottery tickets either.
That's all I wanted to say on this Open Mic Day, which I don't really understand yet.
Sounds like a life well-lived to me. Back in the '80s and early '90s this was the way many of us lived in Australia. Inner city rents were cheap if you were prepared to live in a run down place and do a bit of painting yourself to cheer the place up. Living was cheap so you had time to explore your creativity. I feel sad for today's youth. There is no leeway for them to "just be". They have to accrue massive student debt for jobs they don't want and don't like while trapped in their parents' homes because they can't afford to rent a shoebox.
I never thought I'd ever say this, as I participated in the first officially recognized referendum to legalize marijuana back in 1967 at a Haight-Ashbury Business Association meeting (The vote to legalize marijuana passed overwhelmingly.). However, the potency of today's cannabis product is such that it is no longer my father's weed. I'm wondering if we aren't providing adequate guard rails in researching the effects of the higher THC potency in what is available today.
Smoke a smaller amount. If you used to smoke a joint to get high and a few hits gets you high now, don't smoke the whole joint, it's a waste of weed and money.
When asked if I used drugs, I'd say, "I don't use drugs. I AM drugs!" My motto was 'I'll try anything twice." With aging comes wisdom, and I've now gotten to the point where I can say that I've been straight for, literally, hours.
Congratulations on your new insight and wisdom that comes with age. These days I need a reason to get high; play music, read something that requires insight, eating, sleeping, replying to people, writing poems, thinking, staring out the window.
Good luck with your work/life balance. I recall seeing a cartoon of the brain being divided up into four parts, Sleep, Food, Sex, and B.S. We need to take care of all of them according to our needs. Here's hoping there's something good to look at when you stare out the window.
Where's all the hemp clothing (and ROPE!) we were promised??!!
There is hemp protein powder available.
Why on earth would hemp need protein powder?!
Also, which way would you consume it – fork or spoon?
There are people who are alergic to other types of protein powder, or due to illness cannot consume other types of protein powder. You mix it with the liquid of your choice. 3 tbls. gives you about 14 gr. of protein. I mix it with rice milk in a blender and add various fruits for a total of 17 grms of protein. For me, that's half of my daily protein allowance.
Ah. Thanks.
Am reading two books at the moment, Nabokov's SPEAK MEMORY (for the 4th time) and Louise Gluck's POEMS 1962-2020. Both I can highly recommend. Especially if you are a writer, and/or a reader who responds to precision of diction etc.
When my mother was dying of breast cancer som 15 years ago, I gave her SPEAK MEMORY. She told me after reading it over three days that she'd never read anything so beautiful. Give it a try!
For those curious one of the inspirations for Speak Memory was Delmore Schwartz’s short but beautiful piece “In Dreams Begin Responsibility”, an autobiographical piece about his parent’s marriage told through the narrator watching a film. He cited the phrase “the fatal merciless passionate ocean” as perfect.
The cradle rocks above the abyss...
Thank you, I will try SPEAK MEMORY
I was just reading about "Speak, Memory". Am a Nabokov lover. Thanks for the recommendation, Jim. :)
I first encountered you when Rick Beato interviewed you and I am glad I did. His brilliance in music is matched by your brilliance in, well, as near as I can tell, everything.
I have been listening to "The Train and The River" by the Jimmy Giuffre trio from the 1958 Newport Jazz Festival film. What can I say - a valve trombone, tenor sax and guitar never sounded bigger than that recording.
I grew up listening to jazz on the Felix Grant show on WMAL radio. What a blessing that was.
But by 1972 I started listening to classical music almost exclusively. Sometimes one can hear music that goes back nearly 1000 years, but your writing about older forms has made me curious - have any of the real oldies ever been recorded?
One more thing - Rick Beato posted a vid about the Spotify top 10 and for the first time in my life I heard a Taylor Swift recording (two, actually, but who's counting?). What incredibly vapid gruel that was. As Rick snarked "Go buy another jet". Well, that was after "You are depressed and singing in C major? Why not D minor?"
OMG “The Train and The River” Yes!!
Reminds me also that when I was a kid (early 60s), my mom drove us to school and would sing along with the radio, which was always tuned to “awful” easy listening stations. But imagine my surprise when I started getting into jazz in college and knew all the tunes! Polka Dots and Moonbeams?? Autumn Leaves?? Springtime in Paris?? Those and a million other tunes were my mom’s inadvertent gift to me.
But also classical music. One of my first classical LPs was Stravinsky’s Firebird and Petroushka Suites with L. Stokowski. (Which I still have.) I had no idea about the composer, just loved the music and listened to it all the time - at 6-7. A lot later in college, these two pieces were on the roster of works we heard in Music Lit 101. I remember bursting into tears because of the intense feelings from my childhood they evoked.
I heard that C major/D minor comment too; it was so on point!
The UK comedy Peep Show has been off the air for almost 10 years and is maybe the best piece of comic writing ever? I started my third complete rewatch a few weeks ago and while there are episodes I like more than others, there’s not a single skip.
As I'm sure you know it was co-written and co-created by Jesse Armstrong (Succession). What I've always enjoyed is that whilst the two main characters are fantastic, most if not all of the other recurring characters would be interesting and funny enough to be main characters themselves. It's just all round brilliant.
But of course! Armstrong is a legend. No surprise The Thick of It, In the Loop, and Veep are also brilliant pieces of work
Also, it’s so rare for a comic series to stay edgy, funny, and show characters changing over time
Yes, it's odd that it is so under the radar. Shows like Curb your Enthusiasm and Fleabag are huge, yet Peep Show does it so much better.
Exactly! They broke the mould on so many levels. It’s almost too good.
I agree it was brilliant, but how under the radar was it I thought it was a big hit?
I'll soon be 70, discovered I liked writing lyrics back in 06'. Time went on by, and I never hooked up with a band. When I stumbled onto Suno, I couldn't believe it. My wife, Laurie, of 46 years had just been diagnosed with a rare blood cancer, so I worked over a couple of months producing songs, so that she could finally hear what she had seen me writing over all these years. I use my lyrics in all of my songs, and they're not bad. Laurie loves hearing them! I have the utmost regard for those that can play and perform, and I hope they are unaffected by Ai, and can perhaps somehow utilize it.
My songs are out there.
Best to Ted and all!
Ralph
Why do 99% of music critics focused on jazz and jazz adjacent areas have no appreciation for swing-based music? They also all seem deaf to chord progressions and typically seem to address only issues of tone color/general vibe without being able to really dig into the meat of the music. It feels like this is an issue of folks growing up in the "rock" ethos, a perfectly great genre where chord progressions are simple and knowledge of music & chord changes is minimally required to appreciate it. Was this situation ever different or have most critics always been a bit tone deaf?
I wonder if this comes down to audience expectations. The majority of music listeners don't really engage much with what the music is doing harmonically or rhythmically (I was surprised recently when I commented on Mary Magdalene's bits in Jesus Christ Superstar being in 5/4 and one of my fellow viewers was like "how can you tell?")
And for that matter, lots of listeners think of genre as being primarily what instruments are used: if it's got brass, it's "jazz", if it's got guitars it's "rock", if it's got a string orchestra it's "classical", by their heuristic.
Given that basic landscape, I would imagine that most publications that do reviews are striving for an editorial voice that doesn't alienate readers. So even if the reviewers are well-versed in music theory (and practiced at being able to hear elements of theory when they listen), I'd guess that their editors may be hesitant to let them go too far in that direction.
(I don't *like* that this is the case, to be clear. I think it's quite unfortunate.)
After listening to and playing "swing based music" for 70 yrs. it has become old and all starts to sound the same. Maybe others feel that way too and that's why they aren't interested in "swing based" music. There will never be another new phrase played in "swing based" music, it's all been played over and over and over again.
I can't help it though - I have always had a very good & strong feel for swing. Since a very young age. Could have been growing up hearing my Dad play his Slingerland drums in various Jazz combos when very young.
One of the best compliments I ever received was when I was playing a regular gig in a Country bar long long ago. (Country / Country Rock was a good way to work regularly, even though I have always been a Jazz/Fusion guy). We were playing Bad Moon Rising & some Redneck dances by with his girl & tries to insult me by saying : "We don't wanna hear any of that Jazz Shit in here". I said "Thank you very much Sir" & kept on doing whatever it was I did. Had no idea I was doing it. I guess my inherent swing came through whatever I played. I still remember this lesson (for good or bad) so many years later.
1981 I was playing in a country rock band in Santa Barbara, Ca. One night during a guitar solo, he slipped in Sonny Rollins, Sonnymoon For Two and after I heard the first two notes, I played the whole phrase with him. The other two guys were stunned and afterward asked, "How did you do that?" I told them I knew the tune, they asked, "What tune," and I told them. The guitarist said that he'd bought Sonny's album that afternoon. I know that feeling of whatever other music I'm playing I can't disguise my Jazz feel. Easier to get away with in Blues and Reggae bands.
Aerosmith’s “Rocks” is a great record. When both Slash and Cobain cite a record as formative…
I've got a question for anyone with media marketing experience. It seems like with few exceptions, most of the artists featured on mainstream pop radio today have a well-funded payola marketing team behind them. They don't even have a fanbase (at first), and seem to just appear out of nowhere.
A pretty decent recent example of this is the pop singer Sabrina Carpenter. She's from a long tradition of Disney-channel child actor turned pop singer. I'm curious if anyone knows how much money it takes these days to make a highly visible star "out of thin air" in the span of a couple months? Here is my complete wild guess breakdown:
- Actually recording an album with top musicians, songwriters, mixers: $500k
- Payola placement on iHeartradio, Clear channel, Viacom-owned stations. $5 milliion
- Front page of Apple music promos. $300k
- Front page of Spotify, forced onto curated and generated autoplay lists: $300k
- Make sure you get a spot on lots of popular talk shows (morning shows, late night, etc.) $2 million
- Social media management, daily Instagram posts, video edits for TikTok, click farms, etc. $300k
- Music video production: $1 million
- Total: $7 million?
Honestly I have absolutely no idea what the numbers really are. I could be off by an order of magnitude perhaps on some of these. Someone has to know though.
I would love to see an investigative deep dive on this.
There really needs to be one, but God knows what company would air a series - or even published feature - about it considering everyone's indentured to Meta, TikTok and X.
Ideally, I think such a thing would have to be done by a journalism outlet. Unfortunately I suspect that most of those are operating under exactly the constraints you alluded to.
There’s a definite marketing team. I’m in LA so while I don’t have concrete numbers I’ve been at parties with social media marketers or know musicians who have to engage with it. There has emerged this whole apparatus of white-collar professionals that connect the artists to the big platforms. No one actually knows what’s going on in the algorithms so marketers relay between their inside contacts and the artists for a huge fee. While no musician I’ve ever met likes it, at this point most of their time is focused on marketing questions rather than artistic ones. For instance it’s increasingly difficult to get a meeting/audition if you don’t have a certain social media following. I was once a plus one to an event where there was a teen Disney star with a whole team around. She was handed different phones throughout and was being instructed on when to post and etc. I honestly found it sad. All of these vampires around this teenager. They’ve always been there but it’s gotten a lot worse from my pov.
Sounds about accurate. I know it costs around $150,000 to even place a single ad in an edition of The New York Times. So the money is wild.
Maybe someone else has the figures for you but I highly doubt that's disclosable information on such a thread. Power and Money are two sides of the same hard-earned coin.
I think you're right. A lot of this is kept pretty secret. Would love to know though! It must be sufficiently high such that a rich person with a hobby wouldn't be able to swing it. So not $1 million. More like $10+ million.
I agree. However, I feel like you're placing money alone where creativity (… hard work, building connections) can be. Sometimes the door might not even be locked—you just need to turn the handle.
I think your numbers are based a bit on outdated methods now with the ability by almost anyone to record & produce a good album in basically their bedroom if they so desire. Also the ability to produce good visuals/video/etc from very cheaply & widely available equipment these days. The initial efforts anyway.
Where you would run in to the larger bucks would probably still be the Promo area. Still takes lots of work & sometimes big Payola / influence/etc
I'm amazed at the difficulty of finding a single person who can help me market my self-produced 400 page (with 2 CDs) book. I've struggled with Shopify, even with able assistance, and still have not solved the international shipping problems! Surely I'm not the first person who is using a (very able) fulfillment house to self-market my book "Electronic Perspectives: Vintage Electronic Musical Instruments." View and hear (and buy!) at: electronicperspectives.com
Anybody out there who has previously trod this path? I could use some sound advice . . .
Best, Tom Rhea.
Hi Tom,
Fellow self-published author here. I use Amazon KDP; have never touched Shopify. As for marketing, it's an eternal struggle. While one would be reluctant, Meta ads are a necessity. They are cheaper compared to ads on any other social media platform, let alone online publication. I've never even been on social media, but sadly it's a sine qua non. Thankfully I have a manager to do most of it for me.
Also, if you'd care to join an online group for some mutual support, feel free to touch base and join my new clan, The Artistic Minority Underground: A mutual support hub for experimenters, counterculturists and aesthetes.
Take care, Tom.
Sophia
Thanks Sophia for things to consider! Doesn't Amazon require a cut of your sales? AMU sounds interesting! Tom
Not sure this is right for you, Tom, but take a look. I use it for book sales in Europe where I live. https://www.draft2digital.com
Not certain. My book is already printed, and in a fulfillment house in CA.
Thanks for the tip, though! Tom Rhea.
Thank you - read your comment & checked out your site. What a Fine fine looking book ! As a musician from Wayyyyy back, I will certainly consider purchasing it.
Thanks for that! I can't keep funding "posterity" the way I've done for some 50 years! Best, Tom Rhea.
Are you by any chance on the synth-diy mailing list? I don't recall if they have rules against people posting marketing materials, but I'd guess it's an audience who'd be very interested.
First I've heard of it. Thanks for the lead. Tom
Must they be single, or can those in relationships offer assistance :(
Ha Ha. What do you have?
My deepest admiration for what looks to be a phenomenal tome! Keep us updated on your shipping solution ❤️
Thanks for the kind words. Film at eleven . . . Tom.
Hi Tom,
Yes, Amazon does require a cut. That cut varies according to the price of your book for eBook sales: you can choose to have a 35% or a 70% royalty after $2.99, but if it's anything lower you must have a 35% one. As for the physical formats, I don't remember precisely what it is, but it's pretty high. The good thing is that you can alter your price at any time. If you already have a fulfilment house, I would suggest targeting your advertising budget to Meta and maybe Google Ads. The KDP contract is not exclusive, so should you wish to use both Amazon and your fulfilment house, you can go that route - but you'll have to reformat your paperback (and hardback) to match Amazon's sizes.
I hope that helps!
Enjoy your Saturday,
Sophia
Thanks Sophia for informing me of all this!
" . . .but you'll have to reformat your paperback (and hardback) to match Amazon's sizes."
You see, that is precisely my problem with Amazon. How would I " . . . reformat . . . " a book that weighs 8 pounds (best paper quality possible), and has a slipcase with gold embossing? Reckon I'll have to lump along with my word of mouth approach, so again:
"Electronic Perspectives: Vintage Electronic Musical Instruments" is at electronicperspectives.com for everybody who has zero interest in allowing somebody else to dictate the terms of your dream! Genuinely, thanks. Best, Tom Rhea.
Wow, this is an honour! I feel like a broken record here, as I just sent Ted a message about this community, but I can't forego the opportunity to share news of it here.
I am a millennial author and arts critic who is working to found a community of artists dedicated to the creation of beauty. It is intended to be a mutual support hub for all the hardworking, devoted performers and storytellers out there: today's "artistic minority" in a corporate-controlled, mind-numbing realm. It's my belief - like Ted's - that many gifted singers, composers, writers and other artists aren't getting their due. It's high time for all of us to unite.
The clan will be called The AMU: The Artistic Minority Underground. It'll be a place for counterculturists, experimenters and aesthetes. If you'd care to join us for online meet-ups (maybe in person too, but I'm in London, and it'll depend on everyone's geographical location) - look us up at https://www.thecrepuscularpress.com/the-amu and drop me a message.
Thanks so much for this chance, Ted!
And have a fun weekend, guys.
Sophia
Hi Sophia, I'm in London and very much up for this.