Thanks for this insightful conversation Jared! My husband Peco and I will be addressing similar questions at the Doomer Optimism Gathering this weekend and will be presenting our insights on how we can practically address these challenges in our lives (we'll share the presentation on our Substack as well).
"...hosting or attending parties, social events, or ceremonies has declined something like 70% for young people." One aspect that I have not seen discussed anywhere, is that this stat does not reflect a subgroup of young people who are part of solid faith communities.
Our teens (and their very large circle of friends) have the most active social life one could possibly imagine: they organize traditional dances (regularly drawing over 150 teens& university-aged people); host camp fire evenings; hang out for hours after church discussing life, the universe, and everything; work out together; gather at each other's houses to sing; are serious about commitment and strive for marriage and family. Many of them do have smartphones, but they are simply irrelevant.
Maybe we need to look more toward how technology loses its grip when young people have a meaningful foundation in their lives and an orientation that turns them towards others rather than themselves.
I'm an 80 yo retired physician/psychiatrist and an only (lonely) child. I have only just recently realized that I was raised (??) by two deeply narcissistic parents, both of whom were compensating (Alfred Adler) for the loss of their parents in the 1918 flu pandemic. They sucked ever molecule of oxygen out of the air in any room I was unfortunate enough to have shared with them. I was just wall paper or the success story my mother foisted on every other member of her family, so they all hated my guts and abused me. I have forgiven them and my 42 yr. psychiatry practice was predicated on the old Indian metaphor: "don't judge me until you've walked a mile in MY moccasins". I believe that a huge number of us suffer from the consequences from and compensations for childhood abandonment. Way too many parents are having children that can neither find the time or love to raise, just like their poor dogs/cats locked away at home and desperately lonely. Have a blessed day/evening. You're on the right track.
I think this is something of an understatement in that we are all the products of our parents and they of theirs and so on back to whenever you care to stop thinking about it. No parents are perfect. All parents are processing their own lives. My example is that both my parents lost their fathers in WWII. During that war they were teenagers in Britain and you may confidently bet that was not a happy time in general. My father’s grandfather was killed in WWI. So there is a multigenerational break of family life. Most family systems do not reflect the sentimental view of family life that has become so prevalent in today’s happy world. I am, of course, being sarcastic about today’s happy world - but there’s an unrealistic and widespread hype about the normality of such a thing. My point is that there is indeed widespread trauma and that inevitably gets spread around a bit. The lies we are told about life by the consumer society we live in do not help. And, my family experiences are as nothing compared to the traumas endured by those whose ancestors were enslaved or who are currently, or have been, the victims of genocides - or empire. Or those many others who experience life’s misfortunes on a repeated basis. To paraphrase you, “Walk a mile in another person’s shoes.” We are trained not to do so by the apparent necessities of the economy. The question may be, “Why does new technology so often separate us further from our fellow beings?” Think automobiles, television, and now the internet. We tend to think that other people’s shoes are for admiring as a fashion statement, not for things to walk around in.
To attempt a reply to your question about why modern technology is dividing us further and further (pardon the paraphrase): predatory Capitalism depends on isolating and starving us of love, so that they can plumb the depths of our aching hearts with their flotsam. Ancestral women ran their clans when our ancestors were self-sustaining migratory Hunter-Gatherers, then the powerful horse riders rode in from the Steppes and imposed their matricidal patriarchal ethic on isolated women, who were pretty helpless in isolation (Marija Gimbutas). My parents both lost a parent in the 1918 Flu epidemic and they compensated with the deep narcissism that I was unfortunate enough to grow-up surrounded/abandoned in. So, yes, trauma and its compensations are multigenerational. I am living proof.
Not to deny your general point, but once again there’s more to it than fits in a nice little Substack comment box. Firstly, some of us (if not all of us) have “powerful horse riders” in our ancestry as well as the migratory hunter-gathers. Further, both those groups are essentially migratory, as are many humans, although clearly there are different styles of migration. A horse is technology, a tool that extends human reach. (Sorry, any horses that are reading this, to deny your agency!)
In my own advancing time span, I have become moderately convinced that all technology from the first harnessing of fire and pointed sticks changes behaviour (duh!) and more or less inevitably leads to the situation we are in today. That’s what’s happened, right? We’re getting our knickers in a twist about current digital technology and what it is apparently doing to our minds and society, but resistance to new technologies is nothing new either. Witness the original saboteurs aka the Luddites. Strangely, g’ing “original saboteurs” gives mostly results about various games and adding “Luddites” turns everything French. This AI stuff is great for expanding one’s linguistic horizons!
The corollary to all this is that as individuals, even large groups of individuals, we really have a lot less agency (just like the horses) than we want to believe. Despite all the consumerist propaganda we’re under about our various freedoms - Pepsi! Coke! - we have almost no choice in the adoption of new technologies ‘cos the only message is “Buy!”
Jacque Fresco of The Venus Project has addressed the question of how much control we really have. You may hear clips of his speaking about it on Natacha Atlas’ excellent “Mounqaliba (In A State Of Reversal)” album. Or you can, of course, g the whole thing. Kevin Kelly discusses how technology works in his book “What Technology Wants,” which I confess to not having read in full ‘cos at the time it was published I gagged on the idea of technology “wanting” anything.
What this has to do with the Spanish flu and your own childhood at the meta level is simply that the passage of time does not really solve anything. We’re all living with the fallout of the past and whatever we may think or care to believe we are as motes in the sunlight - or the dark. Our ancestors set the course without knowing where things were going or how it would turn out. As their ancestors did before them. Nothing has changed. We have no freaking idea how this AI stuff will work out - and no control - however much some pump up their thoughts, self-interested or Cassandra-inspired as they may be. There will be more trauma.
You, like your fellow netnicks have given us the benefit (?) of your vast (?) education but actually say nothing reliable, just like your understanding of the domestication of the horse in neolithic Europe. Your “what about isms” are rife with confused bits and pieces of irrelevant pseudo-information, perhaps gained from the infotainment mind control factories that our mass media has become. If you have a “general point”, sorry, I missed it. Have a blessed day.
Someone appears to be in a bad and confused state of mind today, possibly attempting to entertaining himself by making ridiculous assertions about people he doesn’t know and matters he struggles to grasp. Sad.
The megalopolis social bubbles are collapsing. 98% plus have no connection with producing their own food and sustenance through physical interaction with Nature.
That people are enabled to have proxie interactions wirh no real responsibility is just an indicator of tjat imminent collapse.
Perhaps an AI could incorporate better thought traditions (Taoism, etc) to better serve users, but will it? Ultimately these chat bots are just another way to spend time on the internet and we know that any such service will be optimized for maximum engagement, not long term health of the user. People are inevitably drawn toward what feels good now, not what will make them feel good long term. Especially given how much these things cost to train and operate, I think it's unlikely there will be an altruistic version.
As opposed to AI, a real human won't just feed you validation because they have their own need to be heard, have their perspective validated. If you say something they don't agree with, they might feel the need to push back. AI is like some loser who desperately needs you to like them, but is somehow great at acting like they just happen to agree with you about everything.
"how do you know that texting people or hanging out on Discord or playing a video game with your bros in your headset isn’t a perfect substitution for hanging out in the physical world that makes us just as happy? That’s a very complicated and rich question. I think it deserves a lot of research."
If you need "a lot of research" to figure it out, Buddy, you are definitely screwed. I can't believe such a sentence can be taken seriously by anyone with even a smidgin of real life experience.
These are symptoms of a spiritual crisis. When the material forces over take the spiritual forces in a society, it becomes aberrated, introverted and hostile.
They built the great cathedrals and Abbey's in in Europe honor of higher forces. Spiritual matters drove building. Today, our tallest skyscrapers honor the God's of Capitalism. Of course, I'm not against capitalism. But when it eclipses the spiritual forces, there is a fall out.
Did Thoreau tell us long ago that "most men lead lives of quiet desperation" Has anything changed? Maybe the quiet desperation is becoming more audible for all of us to hear?
We were promised the American Dream. Who promised that? Wasn't that a politician? As the industrial revolution progressed, we could move product to markets. Usually at the cost of a few lives. Once we got ours, there was no more stick ball on the streets, or neighborhood bbq's.
Now we could afford our own grill and our kids could pitch the ball into a net as we moved out of the cities. "From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats."
Storytelling was absolutely central to ancient Greek and Roman societies—not just entertainment, but the primary vehicle for education, religion, politics, identity, and moral instruction. Same for Native American and African tribes.
We have no stories. We have no songs that we sing together. The Shaman's are influencers on social media. They no longer sit at the table with us and break bread.
A spiritually focused society seeks knowledge and wisdom. It creates great art and music that is not blocked by the capitalist forces in society.
We are not living in an Age of Enlightenment and the only anecdote until nature takes it's course is to create a golden age within your own consciousness and your daily life. Fill your space with knowledge, wisdom, beautiful art and music.
Because the alternative is socialism, it's older brother communism or feudalism. None of those systems are better and they do represent a spiritual crisis. Innovation=good. Earning a living=good. Crony capitalism represented by political interest that kills main street for the East Indian Trading Company and pricing the little guy out through over regulation and taxes=bad.
Seems to me we need new thinking all round when it comes to organizing our human affairs both socially and economically. It’s arguable that capitalism is simply a “natural” outgrowth of human nature - we all need to look after ourselves as well as we can. One might in a similar way claim that socialism is a more altruistic expression of human nature. One might have a long discussion about what is human nature. Regardless, at this time, capitalism has metastasized into a dire ecological threat upon our species’ common future - and it is not a good, even a fair, deal for many of those at the bottom of the heap or otherwise excluded from its bounty. It’s just not good enough is my objection to it and why I asked you the questions. It seems to me that your last sentence describes an almost inevitable, although perhaps not permanent, outcome of the historical process and underlying mechanics of capitalism as we know it. Certainly, capitalism as it has become with its emphasis on materialism seems not to foster “a spiritually focused society,” although a certain degree of spiritualism is tolerated - and, of course, when a buck can be made, capitalism will take the money.
People (in the incredibly propagandized US) get this weird idea that all socialism is a 1 way ticket to USSR style totalitarianism when in reality most governments are a mix, the post office is socialism after all, it just means the government runs certain things. Look at the medical system we have, its a disaster by every metric except making rich people richer. And perhaps the most important thing is capitalism has no answer to climate change.
Yes, in the USA we live in a propagandized bubble. Most people have no concept of how socialism works and are foolish enough to believe that by some strange miracle capitalism will make them stinkin’ rich.
I’ve always been so delighted by myself…I’m a loner who has been kind to myself…as a kid in the ‘50’s-60’s I had such fun in my alone time in nature, Disneyland, books, cartoons, inventiveness, creative imagination. I was happy that I like me since I was never a girly-girl, a Tom-boy…fitting in the social cookie cutters of my time…my Mom called me her Earth-child (in the dirt, pocket full of frogs, thrilled to make towns for my “troll dolls”…ready biology & nature books…being enthralled with Rachel Carson and Walt Disney).
We are animals…we need to be in our bodies..of our bodies…with our bodies…the intelectual realm needs to find a "body’ to be compassionate, empathetic…the mind can get itself spun out of control.
We need to cultivate nonbooze social fun spots for young people to use as theirs…not a chaperoned/escorted/institutional place…like a makerspace but an interaction space. How to do this?…IDNK
My father and I were recently discussing something applicable here I feel. The novel by HG Wells, The Time Machine - Eloi and Morlocks.
We are removing the need for intelligence and ingenuity, or written differently intelligence (reading, writing, critical thinking, imagination) is no longer an evolutionary advantage to the survival of our species. Over a long-term that will pave the way for a biological response in our DNA.
Fantastic convo, guys. Broadcasting becoming the default mode of communication, encouraging narcissism—that's a big one. One thing you didn't mention is how online interaction bypasses various social boundaries you have IRL, similar to how someone might berate a customer service representative over the phone in a way they never would in person.
Thanks for this insightful conversation Jared! My husband Peco and I will be addressing similar questions at the Doomer Optimism Gathering this weekend and will be presenting our insights on how we can practically address these challenges in our lives (we'll share the presentation on our Substack as well).
"...hosting or attending parties, social events, or ceremonies has declined something like 70% for young people." One aspect that I have not seen discussed anywhere, is that this stat does not reflect a subgroup of young people who are part of solid faith communities.
Our teens (and their very large circle of friends) have the most active social life one could possibly imagine: they organize traditional dances (regularly drawing over 150 teens& university-aged people); host camp fire evenings; hang out for hours after church discussing life, the universe, and everything; work out together; gather at each other's houses to sing; are serious about commitment and strive for marriage and family. Many of them do have smartphones, but they are simply irrelevant.
Maybe we need to look more toward how technology loses its grip when young people have a meaningful foundation in their lives and an orientation that turns them towards others rather than themselves.
I'm an 80 yo retired physician/psychiatrist and an only (lonely) child. I have only just recently realized that I was raised (??) by two deeply narcissistic parents, both of whom were compensating (Alfred Adler) for the loss of their parents in the 1918 flu pandemic. They sucked ever molecule of oxygen out of the air in any room I was unfortunate enough to have shared with them. I was just wall paper or the success story my mother foisted on every other member of her family, so they all hated my guts and abused me. I have forgiven them and my 42 yr. psychiatry practice was predicated on the old Indian metaphor: "don't judge me until you've walked a mile in MY moccasins". I believe that a huge number of us suffer from the consequences from and compensations for childhood abandonment. Way too many parents are having children that can neither find the time or love to raise, just like their poor dogs/cats locked away at home and desperately lonely. Have a blessed day/evening. You're on the right track.
I think this is something of an understatement in that we are all the products of our parents and they of theirs and so on back to whenever you care to stop thinking about it. No parents are perfect. All parents are processing their own lives. My example is that both my parents lost their fathers in WWII. During that war they were teenagers in Britain and you may confidently bet that was not a happy time in general. My father’s grandfather was killed in WWI. So there is a multigenerational break of family life. Most family systems do not reflect the sentimental view of family life that has become so prevalent in today’s happy world. I am, of course, being sarcastic about today’s happy world - but there’s an unrealistic and widespread hype about the normality of such a thing. My point is that there is indeed widespread trauma and that inevitably gets spread around a bit. The lies we are told about life by the consumer society we live in do not help. And, my family experiences are as nothing compared to the traumas endured by those whose ancestors were enslaved or who are currently, or have been, the victims of genocides - or empire. Or those many others who experience life’s misfortunes on a repeated basis. To paraphrase you, “Walk a mile in another person’s shoes.” We are trained not to do so by the apparent necessities of the economy. The question may be, “Why does new technology so often separate us further from our fellow beings?” Think automobiles, television, and now the internet. We tend to think that other people’s shoes are for admiring as a fashion statement, not for things to walk around in.
To attempt a reply to your question about why modern technology is dividing us further and further (pardon the paraphrase): predatory Capitalism depends on isolating and starving us of love, so that they can plumb the depths of our aching hearts with their flotsam. Ancestral women ran their clans when our ancestors were self-sustaining migratory Hunter-Gatherers, then the powerful horse riders rode in from the Steppes and imposed their matricidal patriarchal ethic on isolated women, who were pretty helpless in isolation (Marija Gimbutas). My parents both lost a parent in the 1918 Flu epidemic and they compensated with the deep narcissism that I was unfortunate enough to grow-up surrounded/abandoned in. So, yes, trauma and its compensations are multigenerational. I am living proof.
Not to deny your general point, but once again there’s more to it than fits in a nice little Substack comment box. Firstly, some of us (if not all of us) have “powerful horse riders” in our ancestry as well as the migratory hunter-gathers. Further, both those groups are essentially migratory, as are many humans, although clearly there are different styles of migration. A horse is technology, a tool that extends human reach. (Sorry, any horses that are reading this, to deny your agency!)
In my own advancing time span, I have become moderately convinced that all technology from the first harnessing of fire and pointed sticks changes behaviour (duh!) and more or less inevitably leads to the situation we are in today. That’s what’s happened, right? We’re getting our knickers in a twist about current digital technology and what it is apparently doing to our minds and society, but resistance to new technologies is nothing new either. Witness the original saboteurs aka the Luddites. Strangely, g’ing “original saboteurs” gives mostly results about various games and adding “Luddites” turns everything French. This AI stuff is great for expanding one’s linguistic horizons!
The corollary to all this is that as individuals, even large groups of individuals, we really have a lot less agency (just like the horses) than we want to believe. Despite all the consumerist propaganda we’re under about our various freedoms - Pepsi! Coke! - we have almost no choice in the adoption of new technologies ‘cos the only message is “Buy!”
Jacque Fresco of The Venus Project has addressed the question of how much control we really have. You may hear clips of his speaking about it on Natacha Atlas’ excellent “Mounqaliba (In A State Of Reversal)” album. Or you can, of course, g the whole thing. Kevin Kelly discusses how technology works in his book “What Technology Wants,” which I confess to not having read in full ‘cos at the time it was published I gagged on the idea of technology “wanting” anything.
What this has to do with the Spanish flu and your own childhood at the meta level is simply that the passage of time does not really solve anything. We’re all living with the fallout of the past and whatever we may think or care to believe we are as motes in the sunlight - or the dark. Our ancestors set the course without knowing where things were going or how it would turn out. As their ancestors did before them. Nothing has changed. We have no freaking idea how this AI stuff will work out - and no control - however much some pump up their thoughts, self-interested or Cassandra-inspired as they may be. There will be more trauma.
You, like your fellow netnicks have given us the benefit (?) of your vast (?) education but actually say nothing reliable, just like your understanding of the domestication of the horse in neolithic Europe. Your “what about isms” are rife with confused bits and pieces of irrelevant pseudo-information, perhaps gained from the infotainment mind control factories that our mass media has become. If you have a “general point”, sorry, I missed it. Have a blessed day.
Someone appears to be in a bad and confused state of mind today, possibly attempting to entertaining himself by making ridiculous assertions about people he doesn’t know and matters he struggles to grasp. Sad.
The megalopolis social bubbles are collapsing. 98% plus have no connection with producing their own food and sustenance through physical interaction with Nature.
That people are enabled to have proxie interactions wirh no real responsibility is just an indicator of tjat imminent collapse.
Steinbeck would be a terrible influencer. Reading novels is a luxury in the attention economy.
Perhaps an AI could incorporate better thought traditions (Taoism, etc) to better serve users, but will it? Ultimately these chat bots are just another way to spend time on the internet and we know that any such service will be optimized for maximum engagement, not long term health of the user. People are inevitably drawn toward what feels good now, not what will make them feel good long term. Especially given how much these things cost to train and operate, I think it's unlikely there will be an altruistic version.
As opposed to AI, a real human won't just feed you validation because they have their own need to be heard, have their perspective validated. If you say something they don't agree with, they might feel the need to push back. AI is like some loser who desperately needs you to like them, but is somehow great at acting like they just happen to agree with you about everything.
This guy lost me at
"how do you know that texting people or hanging out on Discord or playing a video game with your bros in your headset isn’t a perfect substitution for hanging out in the physical world that makes us just as happy? That’s a very complicated and rich question. I think it deserves a lot of research."
If you need "a lot of research" to figure it out, Buddy, you are definitely screwed. I can't believe such a sentence can be taken seriously by anyone with even a smidgin of real life experience.
These are symptoms of a spiritual crisis. When the material forces over take the spiritual forces in a society, it becomes aberrated, introverted and hostile.
They built the great cathedrals and Abbey's in in Europe honor of higher forces. Spiritual matters drove building. Today, our tallest skyscrapers honor the God's of Capitalism. Of course, I'm not against capitalism. But when it eclipses the spiritual forces, there is a fall out.
Did Thoreau tell us long ago that "most men lead lives of quiet desperation" Has anything changed? Maybe the quiet desperation is becoming more audible for all of us to hear?
We were promised the American Dream. Who promised that? Wasn't that a politician? As the industrial revolution progressed, we could move product to markets. Usually at the cost of a few lives. Once we got ours, there was no more stick ball on the streets, or neighborhood bbq's.
Now we could afford our own grill and our kids could pitch the ball into a net as we moved out of the cities. "From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats."
Storytelling was absolutely central to ancient Greek and Roman societies—not just entertainment, but the primary vehicle for education, religion, politics, identity, and moral instruction. Same for Native American and African tribes.
We have no stories. We have no songs that we sing together. The Shaman's are influencers on social media. They no longer sit at the table with us and break bread.
A spiritually focused society seeks knowledge and wisdom. It creates great art and music that is not blocked by the capitalist forces in society.
We are not living in an Age of Enlightenment and the only anecdote until nature takes it's course is to create a golden age within your own consciousness and your daily life. Fill your space with knowledge, wisdom, beautiful art and music.
“ Of course, I'm not against capitalism.”
Why not? Why “of course”?
Because the alternative is socialism, it's older brother communism or feudalism. None of those systems are better and they do represent a spiritual crisis. Innovation=good. Earning a living=good. Crony capitalism represented by political interest that kills main street for the East Indian Trading Company and pricing the little guy out through over regulation and taxes=bad.
Seems to me we need new thinking all round when it comes to organizing our human affairs both socially and economically. It’s arguable that capitalism is simply a “natural” outgrowth of human nature - we all need to look after ourselves as well as we can. One might in a similar way claim that socialism is a more altruistic expression of human nature. One might have a long discussion about what is human nature. Regardless, at this time, capitalism has metastasized into a dire ecological threat upon our species’ common future - and it is not a good, even a fair, deal for many of those at the bottom of the heap or otherwise excluded from its bounty. It’s just not good enough is my objection to it and why I asked you the questions. It seems to me that your last sentence describes an almost inevitable, although perhaps not permanent, outcome of the historical process and underlying mechanics of capitalism as we know it. Certainly, capitalism as it has become with its emphasis on materialism seems not to foster “a spiritually focused society,” although a certain degree of spiritualism is tolerated - and, of course, when a buck can be made, capitalism will take the money.
People (in the incredibly propagandized US) get this weird idea that all socialism is a 1 way ticket to USSR style totalitarianism when in reality most governments are a mix, the post office is socialism after all, it just means the government runs certain things. Look at the medical system we have, its a disaster by every metric except making rich people richer. And perhaps the most important thing is capitalism has no answer to climate change.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Yes, in the USA we live in a propagandized bubble. Most people have no concept of how socialism works and are foolish enough to believe that by some strange miracle capitalism will make them stinkin’ rich.
I’ve always been so delighted by myself…I’m a loner who has been kind to myself…as a kid in the ‘50’s-60’s I had such fun in my alone time in nature, Disneyland, books, cartoons, inventiveness, creative imagination. I was happy that I like me since I was never a girly-girl, a Tom-boy…fitting in the social cookie cutters of my time…my Mom called me her Earth-child (in the dirt, pocket full of frogs, thrilled to make towns for my “troll dolls”…ready biology & nature books…being enthralled with Rachel Carson and Walt Disney).
We are animals…we need to be in our bodies..of our bodies…with our bodies…the intelectual realm needs to find a "body’ to be compassionate, empathetic…the mind can get itself spun out of control.
I’m 73 and was raised in Disneyland…we are "cast members" in our social media "theaters"…our roles/characters are a splintered self.
Online we cannot see the eyes/souls humanity. Old days written letters did not even have this removal from flesh.
We need to cultivate nonbooze social fun spots for young people to use as theirs…not a chaperoned/escorted/institutional place…like a makerspace but an interaction space. How to do this?…IDNK
My father and I were recently discussing something applicable here I feel. The novel by HG Wells, The Time Machine - Eloi and Morlocks.
We are removing the need for intelligence and ingenuity, or written differently intelligence (reading, writing, critical thinking, imagination) is no longer an evolutionary advantage to the survival of our species. Over a long-term that will pave the way for a biological response in our DNA.
Fantastic convo, guys. Broadcasting becoming the default mode of communication, encouraging narcissism—that's a big one. One thing you didn't mention is how online interaction bypasses various social boundaries you have IRL, similar to how someone might berate a customer service representative over the phone in a way they never would in person.